above address shaft plane angle at impact

[ej20]

i think you are mistaking a steeper plane angle with being above plane

Thats fine.I can accept straight down the TSP as being a steeper angle of approach rather than OTT which would be above the TSP.Just don't assume Nicklaus is always on the TSP.

It just shows that good players don't always swing on the same plane angle depending on the way they shape their shots.

Here is Mickelson again seeming to hit a push or a push draw judging by the direction the ball is leaving.In this swing he flattens more onto the elbow plane.


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[bcoak]

Brian,
Care to bring some clarity to all this?

 

[fronesis]

New Questions/Reformulation

So I think see more what ej20 is getting at now. I understand the argument like this:

• We easily recognize players who shift to the elbow plane early in the downswing (literally as part of their transition).
• But some players who we take for TSPers actually make a shallowing move very late in the swing. Thus, contrary to popular wisdom that they "don't shift," that they simply "swing down the TSP," these players shallow out their swing late in the downswing such that they are not on the TSP at impact

.

The questions for me would then be as follows:

1. HOW do you shallow out late in the swing?
2. WHEN/WHY would you want to?

I'm particularly interested in this personally because I do have a tendency to get to steep AND for me making a sergio like shift at the beginning of the downswing doesn't work very well. So what are good players who "shallow out" doing to get shallower, and how might someone TRY to do it.

 

[pecky987]

So I think see more what ej20 is getting at now. I understand the argument like this:

• We easily recognize players who shift to the elbow plane early in the downswing (literally as part of their transition).
• But some players who we take for TSPers actually make a shallowing move very late in the swing. Thus, contrary to popular wisdom that they "don't shift," that they simply "swing down the TSP," these players shallow out their swing late in the downswing such that they are not on the TSP at impact

.

The questions for me would then be as follows:

1. HOW do you shallow out late in the swing?
2. WHEN/WHY would you want to?

I'm particularly interested in this personally because I do have a tendency to get to steep AND for me making a sergio like shift at the beginning of the downswing doesn't work very well. So what are good players who "shallow out" doing to get shallower, and how might someone TRY to do it.

IMO, a true TSP downswing and impact, by some peoples parameters, isnt possible.

there are people who say the clubshaft (or sweetspot plane), the right forearm and the right shoulder must all be on-plane at impact.

as far as i can see, this isnt possible biomechanically. for the forearm and the shoulder to be onplane, the part that connects them (the right bicep) must also be onplane. the only way this is possible is with a straight right arm which is highly unlikely.

most players who do have the shaft on the TSP either have the forearm below the plane of the shaft (david toms) and on plane right shoulder, or have the forearm on plane and slightly flatter shoulders.

now, with regards to a "late shift" back to the elbow plane. one person who definetly does this is fred couples, a fader of the ball. i believe it is to attempt to "straighten out" the path of the club - i.e less inside out. an attempt to pull the club more to the inside as opposed to from the inside.

other players who did this i think include arnold palmer.

with regards to teaching people, or learning to shift late. i have no idea. i dont see how people can learn to shift planes that late. the idea of making people shift planes when they dont naturally just seems like a very wrong thing to do.

i can see how you could learn to shift planes early in the downswing (whether or not it would be a good idea is another matter) but that late, dont know. i know brian has talked about using the late shift in the NHA pattern (which i havnt seen) and would love to know how brian achieves this.

 

[The BC VIP]

Brian's TSP swing?

Sorry to interject but didn't Brian post a video of his own swing with the specific purpose of showing a swing on the TSP? I thought it was a recent post, but I can't find it. I want to take a look at it as a reference for this thread. Anyone remember it?

 

[detonum]

Here is Mickelson again seeming to hit a push or a push draw judging by the direction the ball is leaving.In this swing he flattens more onto the elbow plane.


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You can't really tell - I would say that he has the same plane angle, but he is swinging more left for a draw, which makes it look like he changed his plane angle on video.

 

[ej20]

detonum,if it looks like he has changed plane angles then he has changed plane angles.If that is a valid argument then whats the point of video analysis?

If you look at the previous video,the clubshaft covers his right arm approaching impact.In the second video,the clubshaft covers his left forearm at the same point.Big difference in results.

 

[Damon Lucas]

Sam,

People do things at different parts of the downswing(and backswing) to produce different ball flights.
They do so with different body segments.
At a very late stage of a downswing there is so much torque on the more proximal body parts, that only the more distal points can adjust, so...
You can get 'underplane' with the wrist joints(powered by forearm muscles) - most likely late downswing adjustment,
You can get underplane with the elbow joints(powered by shoulders/upper arms- slightly less likely,
Also, it is pretty likely that you know what is likely to happen, so you 'prepare' for the late adjustment!

etc, etc

You could stand up on it if you wanted, gets club underplane.

Trick is to go through each joint independently and 'see' what happensto club/shaft/clubhead if there are changes in that joint.
Caution...massively long process if you went through every joint and every permutation, but pretty short process if you just want a general idea, and can imagine the possibilities that flow!

 

[detonum]

detonum,if it looks like he has changed plane angles then he has changed plane angles.If that is a valid argument then whats the point of video analysis?

If you look at the previous video,the clubshaft covers his right arm approaching impact.In the second video,the clubshaft covers his left forearm at the same point.Big difference in results.

What I'm saying is, when we can see that the clubshaft appears flatter when hitting a draw, we don't know (for certain) if it's only because the planeline has been rotated to hit a draw, or if he has also changed the plane angle.

 

[pecky987]

you've also got to remember camera angle on these things. as well as parallax. plane angles are hard to determine unless the camera is exactly aligned properly

 

[ej20]

you've also got to remember camera angle on these things. as well as parallax. plane angles are hard to determine unless the camera is exactly aligned properly

pecky...u are right...camera angles and parallax do come into play...but,you can always tell if a player is shifting planes or coming straight down unless maybe the camera angle is way out of wack which they are not in those videos.

 

[dsmith2296]

I am way above the plane line at impact. Any drills to help?

drag the heel into the ground before the toe when taking a divot.

 

[Zztop]

Sam,

People do things at different parts of the downswing(and backswing) to produce different ball flights.
They do so with different body segments.
At a very late stage of a downswing there is so much torque on the more proximal body parts, that only the more distal points can adjust, so...
You can get 'underplane' with the wrist joints(powered by forearm muscles) - most likely late downswing adjustment,
You can get underplane with the elbow joints(powered by shoulders/upper arms- slightly less likely,
Also, it is pretty likely that you know what is likely to happen, so you 'prepare' for the late adjustment!

etc, etc

You could stand up on it if you wanted, gets club underplane.

Trick is to go through each joint independently and 'see' what happensto club/shaft/clubhead if there are changes in that joint.
Caution...massively long process if you went through every joint and every permutation, but pretty short process if you just want a general idea, and can imagine the possibilities that flow!

If you know what's going to happen why the need for a so called late adjustment? Here's a test: video yourself trying to hit a fade, then a draw, then a low shot, then a high shot and after compare to see if there are different plane shifts etc.,etc.

If there are differences did they happen because you focused on trying to shift planes, or because you focused on producing different shots? Did the differences happen because you made a micro second last change on the way down? How would you know? You can work on all the effects or work on what causes the effects. And if you do the former there's a lot to work on, endless effects.