Analysis of kinetic chain action in golf swing

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Brian recently mentioned that he will be going before long on a top secret mission. :eek:

I am convinced that one issue on which he tries to get some expert opinion is the matter of kinetic chain action.

I just so happens that I have done an analysis of the kinetic chain action in a golf swing.

So for the few interested in this matter have a look and for all those who are only interested in practical golf tips and in the HOW of golf, well, just keep happily trucking along. :D
 
Hence for an efficient golf swing, expend adequate effort (yang) early on in the down swing and then let go through impact (yin).

Okay I will admit I started in on the article and then glanced through it quite quickly, but this seems to make an important point here. I teach a lot of players (one today) that expends the energy too late in the downswing and then they look all jammed up at impact with less than optimal club head speed and are really never letting go through impact. Typically they have the club close to them with their arms into the body instead of extended.

This makes a lot of sense to me and I will re-read article for the meat and potatoes (and hope to understand most of it!) Great stuff I hope that I am on the right track to understanding this.

Thanks for your effort on this Mandrin.

Steve
 
Okay I will admit I started in on the article and then glanced through it quite quickly, but this seems to make an important point here. I teach a lot of players (one today) that expends the energy too late in the downswing and then they look all jammed up at impact with less than optimal club head speed and are really never letting go through impact. Typically they have the club close to them with their arms into the body instead of extended.

This makes a lot of sense to me and I will re-read article for the meat and potatoes (and hope to understand most of it!) Great stuff I hope that I am on the right track to understanding this.

Thanks for your effort on this Mandrin.

Steve
Steve,

I particularly appreciate positive comments from teachers, as their are many members who feel, and even post, that science has nothing to contribute in a practical way. :)

I don’t quit remember how it felt the first time swinging a club but I have the impression that most amateurs instinctively try to muscle the swing as this feels purposeful and powerful. Letting go probably would feel rather weak and it has to be learned not being very natural.

Perhaps for the more analytically inclined members on this forum my article might perhaps inspire them to try it out and see what it does for their swing. :p
 
"The only efficient way to still increase clubhead speed close to impact is not by applying a torque but rather a very brisk upward linear force.

...

mandrin "

Mandrin,
when you talk about an "upward linear force", is this really a force that would be applied longitudinally along the shaft of a golf club in a real swing?

As always, thank you for your time and effort.

Jim S.
 

ggsjpc

New
Great post again

Mandrin,

Thanks for the great post. It was a different description than what I have heard before. I usually hear it talked about the chain reaction beginning with the ground and going out, which you touched upon and not so much on the single torque of what I am assuming is the shoulder joint.

2 questions.

1) You mentioned something about a linera movement of that joint. Is that the lateral movement of the left shoulder joint in the downswing?

2) Do you have a good picture reperesenting what the true path looks like in an iron impact (low point after ball) or driver impact after low point?

I know the second question is not relative to this post but I've been looking through the threads for days and can't find one.
 
"The only efficient way to still increase clubhead speed close to impact is not by applying a torque but rather a very brisk upward linear force."

Mandrin: I'd like to thank you for the time you put into these threads. You are the corner stone of the scientific viewpoint and your input contributes to making this site what it is.

If my understanding is correct, in the golf swing, shortening of the swing radius is the effect of the 'upward force'. How does it represent itself in the workings of the model you presented?

Thanks, Cliff
 
Hi Mandrin

Thank you very much for this very interesting article.

After reading TGM a short while ago, I fancied myself as a hitter. Working on COFF, I've been struck by my difficulty in hitting crisp chip shots unless I apply a little force across the shaft through the ball (i.e., difficulty in getting any juice from hitting it with my pivot). I also read (on this amazing forum) that it's ideal to apply force along the shaft from the top until the club is vertical, then apply force across the shaft. Does your article suggest otherwise (pull from the top and just let it go)? I'd be really interested to know your thoughts on this.

Btw, the only thing I'd take a bit of issue with is your implication that "inertial reaction forces" - i.e., centifugal force, exist - surely this is simply a perceived effect of inertia a la Newton's first law (the tendency of an object to remain in a state of rest or uniform motion in a STRAIGHT line unless acted upon by a force).

Again - thank you for the great and interesting post. This could help me a lot!

John
 
"The only efficient way to still increase clubhead speed close to impact is not by applying a torque but rather a very brisk upward linear force.

...

mandrin "

Mandrin,
when you talk about an "upward linear force", is this really a force that would be applied longitudinally along the shaft of a golf club in a real swing?

As always, thank you for your time and effort.

Jim S.
Jim,

Thanks for your appreciation. Fun to have people interested in science. Not always easy or evident on a golf forum. ;)

Yes, indeed, a force applied longitudinally along the shaft, but ONLY when very close to impact. The mechanism behind it is the same as used by a child to keep his swing swinging. There is/are posts in the archives. Raising COM, standing up on toes, stretching lead side, snapping knee(s), lead shoulder up and inwards are all towards that goal, albeit usually mentioned or taught without knowledge of the basic governing mechanism behind it. :)
 
Great post Mandrin! Many questions have been answered in this thread.

I can see that you have worked very hard on this information and I for one want to thank you for your contributions to this forum!

Your info. was such that I really can't think of any questions to ask at the moment. That is actually quite rare for me. :)

Bravo Mandrin! Bravo!
 
Mandrin,

...Thanks for the great post.

...It was a different description than what I have heard before. I usually hear it talked about the chain reaction beginning with the ground and going out, which you touched upon and not so much on the single torque of what I am assuming is the shoulder joint.

2 questions.

...1) You mentioned something about a linera movement of that joint. Is that the lateral movement of the left shoulder joint in the downswing?

...2) Do you have a good picture reperesenting what the true path looks like in an iron impact (low point after ball) or driver impact after low point?

I know the second question is not relative to this post but I've been looking through the threads for days and can't find one.

ggsjpc,

...Thanks.

...The idea of kinetic chain indeed applies from the ground up and outwards to the clubhead. My post however is primarily meant to explain specifically the concept of kinetic chain action itself, in the most simple way possible…yet even so it presented plenty of work. ;)

...Usually indeed one thinks of the inner pivot of a double pendulum model as the lead shoulder. However somewhat more appropriately it is to be taken as the midpoint between the shoulders. The linear motion I mentioned in the concluding remarks is not referring to a lateral motion but rather to a vertical one, upwards.

...I am sorry but I don’t have the kind of picture/figure you are looking for.
 
I am guessing when you (essentially) say "don't fire hard through impact" you are saying that one should be making no extra effort to continuously turn?

Ideally (at least for speed), the pivot comes to a dead stop correct? Assuming yes...ideally when?

My feeling is that any decent athlete or good golfer should know this intuitively or at least be able to feel it/see it and relate to it.

That's meant to be testament BTW, not a knock.
 
"The only efficient way to still increase clubhead speed close to impact is not by applying a torque but rather a very brisk upward linear force."

Mandrin: I'd like to thank you for the time you put into these threads. You are the corner stone of the scientific viewpoint and your input contributes to making this site what it is.

If my understanding is correct, in the golf swing, shortening of the swing radius is the effect of the 'upward force'. How does it represent itself in the workings of the model you presented?

Thanks, Cliff
Cliff,

Nice compliments, I appreciate.

The linked write up is about kinetic chain action, not about shortening swing radius or applying upward force through impact and hence it is not modeled. ;)

However since everyone seems to be so interested in this vertical force I will eventually analyze it more in detail. It can be modeled and studied by imposing various vertical or near vertical, or more in general, by curvilinear accelerations time histories at the inner pivot.

I have been posting about his before and indeed shortening the swing radius can be shown to be mathematically equivalent to applying a longitudinal upward force along the club shaft. Also quite close, albeit somewhat to a lesser degree, is applying a vertical force, if done impulsively, with the club more or less vertical just prior to impact.
 

Bronco Billy

New member
Well I'll Be Damned......

Brian recently mentioned that he will be going before long on a top secret mission. :eek:

I am convinced that one issue on which he tries to get some expert opinion is the matter of kinetic chain action.

I just so happens that I have done an analysis of the kinetic chain action in a golf swing.

So for the few interested in this matter have a look and for all those who are only interested in practical golf tips and in the HOW of golf, well, just keep happily trucking along. :D

ALL Pull..... NO Push.... NO Brake..... Also I Hope You Realize That You are Gonna Piss a Lot of People Off about the NO Brake for Release and the Mentioning of Iron Byron and Diffy EQ Man in the Same Analysis.... Have a Great Day....:)

Ps.. It Also Amazes Me How Some of These Dudes Use Mandys Analysis to Prove Their Own Pet Theories TRUE.... When Many of These Pet Theories are Actually Proven FALSE by Mandys Analysis.....:eek:
 
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Hi Mandrin

Thank you very much for this very interesting article.

After reading TGM a short while ago, I fancied myself as a hitter. Working on COFF, I've been struck by my difficulty in hitting crisp chip shots unless I apply a little force across the shaft through the ball (i.e., difficulty in getting any juice from hitting it with my pivot). I also read (on this amazing forum) that it's ideal to apply force along the shaft from the top until the club is vertical, then apply force across the shaft. Does your article suggest otherwise (pull from the top and just let it go)? I'd be really interested to know your thoughts on this.

Btw, the only thing I'd take a bit of issue with is your implication that "inertial reaction forces" - i.e., centifugal force, exist - surely this is simply a perceived effect of inertia a la Newton's first law (the tendency of an object to remain in a state of rest or uniform motion in a STRAIGHT line unless acted upon by a force).

Again - thank you for the great and interesting post. This could help me a lot!

John
John,

Thanks….I really do appreciate finding my article interesting. Your comments highlight somewhat the difficulty of discussing meaningfully, posting on forums. When simple people ask complicated questions. When complicated simplicity is requested. Discussing general principles practical details are put forward. It is difficult to cover all angles. :)

Don’t throw everything into the same mix. There is a big difference between analyzing the mechanism of kinetic chain action and teaching how to hit crisp chip shots. Discussing kinetic chain mechanism is not about how to improve your swing in 5 easy steps but about the efficiency of the motion producing a golf swing. Golf being a game of paradoxes, many will indeed score better with a mechanically inefficient swing.

If you take a look at golf instruction you will find often the advice that hands should not play an active role, be passive or something similar. There is very little instruction around like that by given Tommy Armour. However, golf is not simply mathematics and the matter of feel is forever obscuring each and every argument used in golf.

There is a consensus that for most golfer’s hands should be taken out of the equation, therefore going in the same direction as suggested by kinetic chain action or Bobby Jone’s freewheeling, but again as usual not all is cast in stone. An active wrist torque applied just prior to impact, but feel wise likely a bit earlier, is increasing club head speed. My article however is about efficiency not club head speed.

It should clear that I am not teaching anyone the details of how to swing a golf club but rather analyzing simply the basic mechanism of an efficient golf swing. Hence, someone struggling to get some distance muscling his driver might try on his own or with an instructor the approach suggested by the kinetic chain mechanism, fire early and let go through impact.

John, with regard to your comment re. reaction forces I simply suggest to widen your perspective somewhat and start thinking a bit more about the implications of Newton’s third law, especially the matter of the point of application of forces. Simple questions: the very large inertial reaction force produced by your skull, when hit by and deviating a fast moving heavy object, is it simply a perception? Also, do you figure that the very large linear joint inertial reaction forces acting through the wrists during a golf swing are just a fancy of the mind? ;)
 
Mandrin,

Thank you for sharing your analysis. Your models have given me conceptual currency for understanding the ‘why’ of what in fact works best in my own swing – for speed. Now if you can just tell me how to consistently make contact with the sweet-spot, I will go quietly into the night.:D
 
Great post Mandrin! Many questions have been answered in this thread.

I can see that you have worked very hard on this information and I for one want to thank you for your contributions to this forum!

Your info. was such that I really can't think of any questions to ask at the moment. That is actually quite rare for me. :)

Bravo Mandrin! Bravo!
libro,

Since you have no questions for me I might ask you perhaps a question. How come I make an elaborate post on kinetic chain mechanism and yet there is seemingly mainly a desire to discuss something quite different - vertical up motion/force through impact? :D
 
libro,

Since you have no questions for me I might ask you perhaps a question. How come I make an elaborate post on kinetic chain mechanism and yet there is seemingly mainly a desire to discuss something quite different - vertical up motion/force through impact? :D

Perhaps because we're still looking for "the secret"....
 
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