Analysis of kinetic chain action in golf swing

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Mandrin,

Thank you for sharing your analysis. Your models have given me conceptual currency for understanding the ‘why’ of what in fact works best in my own swing – for speed. Now if you can just tell me how to consistently make contact with the sweet-spot, I will go quietly into the night.:D
John,

If I had the definite answer on how to hit the sweet spot each and every time I would be inclined to cash in on it and advertising it as follows.

Definite solution to all of your frustration in learning golf. It will reveal the final and ultimate secret of how a small guy, barely 100 pounds soaking wet, crippled with severe arthritis, standing on one leg and swinging with one arm, can effortlessly hit it over 300 yards, whilst simultaneously either smoking a big cigar or signing autographs for the many admirers crowding closely.

Just three easy payments of $39.99 and it all yours. Guaranteed, your golfing buddies will plead strongly with you to find out how you got almost overnight to swing with such grace and effortless power. It is up to you to either share your secret or to have them, at least for a little while, scrutinize jealously your swing hoping to discover your secret, whilst you are cashing in their money.
 
Hi Mandrin

I have no trouble with the validity of the kinetic chain approach from my own experience of other sports.

Let's look at circular motion. Since velocity is a vector quantity it has both size (the speed bit) and direction. When moving in a circle with constant speed an object's direction is always changing and so its velocity is always changing - it's therefore accelerating (by definition - acceleration is the rate of change of velocity). If it's accelerating, the 2nd law says that it's experiencing a resultant force (the forces on it are unbalanced!). What is this resultant force? - the centripetal force directed in toward the centre of the circle. It's the thing that keeps the curve going - without it the object would fly off at a tangent because of its INERTIA. When you corner in a fast car and feel that pull to the outside it's because you were going that way already!! Not because of any CENTRIFUGAL FORCE but because of INERTIA. The first law says that an object continues in a state of rest or uniform motion IN A STRAIGHT line unless acted upon by a force. It's tendency to do that is called its INERTIA.

If the centrifugal force existed and were equal and opposite to the centripetal force, circular motion would be impossible - there would be no resultant inward force to keep the curve going.

Which brings us to the data. Exactly how were these data obtained? You mention modelling. Were the data obtained from actual tests with Iron Byron or a similar machine or from a simulation program? Were they obtained by calculation only - if so, what were the assumptions made in order to do the calculations?
 
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Hi Mandrin

I have no trouble with the validity of the kinetic chain approach from my own experience of other sports. However, I've had a chance to sit down and look at your article in the cold light of day and I'm afraid that paragraphs 2 to 4 inclusive show a serious misunderstanding of Newtonian mechanics, including the 3rd law.
It is true that, for example, when two bodies collide they exert an equal and opposite force on each other. However, forces don't always come in pairs that are equal and opposite otherwise objects would never accelerate. The 2nd law shows that a body undergoing acceleration must be acted upon by a resultant force (and allows you to calculate it using F= ma, where m is the mass of the body).
Let's look at circular motion. Since velocity is a vector quantity it has both size (the speed bit) and direction. When moving in a circle with constant speed an object's direction is always changing and so its velocity is always changing - it's therefore accelerating (by definition - acceleration is the rate of change of velocity). If it's accelerating, the 2nd law says that it's experiencing a resultant force (the forces on it are unbalanced!). What is this resultant force? - the centripetal force directed in toward the centre of the circle. It's the thing that keeps the curve going - without it the object would fly off at a tangent because of its INERTIA. When you corner in a fast car and feel that pull to the outside it's because you were going that way already!! Not because of any CENTRIFUGAL FORCE but because of INERTIA. The first law says that an object continues in a state of rest or uniform motion IN A STRAIGHT line unless acted upon by a force. It's tendency to do that is called its INERTIA.

If the centrifugal force existed and were equal and opposite to the centripetal force, circular motion would be impossible - there would be no resultant inward force to keep the curve going.

I've made a living by teaching chemistry but I've two colleagues who are physics graduates from Cambridge University (more Nobel prize winners than the old Soviet Union!) and they have confirmed the correctness of my views on this.

Dreaming up the existence of imaginary forces which can be mathematically proven not to exist isn't going to do anything for science and will make people question the validity of any conclusions drawn.

Which brings us to the data. Exactly how were these data obtained? You mention modelling. Were the data obtained from actual tests with Iron Byron or a similar machine or from a simulation program? Were they obtained by calculation only - if so, what were the assumptions made in order to do the calculations?

As I said, I have no problem with the validity of the kinetic chain snap idea but as a lifelong science teacher doing one's utmost to undo popular misconceptions, it's hard to stand by and allow them to be perpetrated without comment.
John,

For now I simply suggest gently to delete your post. If you leave it on I will be forced to show that being a lifetime teacher of science is not much of a guarantee of anything. :eek: Moreover it hurts me to tell you but Cambridge University besides Nobel prize winners also seem to produce physics graduates who have been sleeping though some of their science courses. It is entirely up to you. ;)
 

Bronco Billy

New member
John That was One Hell of An Explanation....

Hi Mandrin

I have no trouble with the validity of the kinetic chain approach from my own experience of other sports. However, I've had a chance to sit down and look at your article in the cold light of day and I'm afraid that paragraphs 2 to 4 inclusive show a serious misunderstanding of Newtonian mechanics, including the 3rd law.
It is true that, for example, when two bodies collide they exert an equal and opposite force on each other. However, forces don't always come in pairs that are equal and opposite otherwise objects would never accelerate. The 2nd law shows that a body undergoing acceleration must be acted upon by a resultant force (and allows you to calculate it using F= ma, where m is the mass of the body).
Let's look at circular motion. Since velocity is a vector quantity it has both size (the speed bit) and direction. When moving in a circle with constant speed an object's direction is always changing and so its velocity is always changing - it's therefore accelerating (by definition - acceleration is the rate of change of velocity). If it's accelerating, the 2nd law says that it's experiencing a resultant force (the forces on it are unbalanced!). What is this resultant force? - the centripetal force directed in toward the centre of the circle. It's the thing that keeps the curve going - without it the object would fly off at a tangent because of its INERTIA. When you corner in a fast car and feel that pull to the outside it's because you were going that way already!! Not because of any CENTRIFUGAL FORCE but because of INERTIA. The first law says that an object continues in a state of rest or uniform motion IN A STRAIGHT line unless acted upon by a force. It's tendency to do that is called its INERTIA.

If the centrifugal force existed and were equal and opposite to the centripetal force, circular motion would be impossible - there would be no resultant inward force to keep the curve going.

I've made a living by teaching chemistry but I've two colleagues who are physics graduates from Cambridge University (more Nobel prize winners than the old Soviet Union!) and they have confirmed the correctness of my views on this.

Dreaming up the existence of imaginary forces which can be mathematically proven not to exist isn't going to do anything for science and will make people question the validity of any conclusions drawn.

Which brings us to the data. Exactly how were these data obtained? You mention modelling. Were the data obtained from actual tests with Iron Byron or a similar machine or from a simulation program? Were they obtained by calculation only - if so, what were the assumptions made in order to do the calculations?

As I said, I have no problem with the validity of the kinetic chain snap idea but as a lifelong science teacher doing one's utmost to undo popular misconceptions, it's hard to stand by and allow them to be perpetrated without comment.

Thanks for the Education.... And I'm Bettin You Are One Terrific Chemistry Instructor... Best of Luck To You.... And Have a Great Day....:)
 
Hey, BroncoB, unlike many here, i don't want to see you get kicked off the Manzella board so I'm wondering did you read Brian's post a week ago laying down the new law? It had some requirements for several things, including new Bronco Billy posts (related to color of font and where the text was located). I would have emailed you this but you have your email disabled. I'll delete this post as soon as you reply.
 
Hi Mandrin

You mean that you're going to "prove" the existence of centrifugal force?!!

Wow - go ahead. While you're at it, what about fairies at the bottom of the garden?

Oh - btw - Which brings us to the data. Exactly how were these data obtained? You mention modelling. Were the data obtained from actual tests with Iron Byron or a similar machine or from a simulation program? Were they obtained by calculation only - if so, what were the assumptions made in order to do the calculations?

John
 
Hi Mandrin

You mean that you're going to "prove" the existence of centrifugal force?!!

Wow - go ahead. While you're at it, what about fairies at the bottom of the garden?

Oh - btw - Which brings us to the data. Exactly how were these data obtained? You mention modelling. Were the data obtained from actual tests with Iron Byron or a similar machine or from a simulation program? Were they obtained by calculation only - if so, what were the assumptions made in order to do the calculations?

John

Oh Billy..I mean John:rolleyes:
 
Hi Mandrin

I only mentioned the chemistry bit to state that I wasn't a physics specialist!!
And apparently it shows!! I've just been told by a physics colleague that forces DO always come in pairs which are equal and opposite BUT the two forces do not act on the same body. The centripetal force is itself a resultant force, i.e., the result of the forces acting on an object moving in a circle and this is why it has no reaction force, i.e., there is still no such thing as centrifugal force!

I'm still interested in how you obtained the data in the graphs because if it helps my game I'll SWIM over there and buy you a beer!!
 

Bronco Billy

New member
Hey John... I Don't Know For Sure... Here's My Guess...

Hi Mandrin

You mean that you're going to "prove" the existence of centrifugal force?!!

Wow - go ahead. While you're at it, what about fairies at the bottom of the garden?

Oh - btw - Which brings us to the data. Exactly how were these data obtained? You mention modelling. Were the data obtained from actual tests with Iron Byron or a similar machine or from a simulation program? Were they obtained by calculation only - if so, what were the assumptions made in order to do the calculations?

John

I Think Mandy Has a Math Package and He Pumps Parameters(Assumptions) Diligently Into a Double Pendulum Math Model.... When Mandy Gets the Graphs to Look like a Two Dimensional Touring Pro/Iron Byron's Golf Swing He Then Uses These Parameters(Assumptions) To Generate Other Graphs and Formulate His Verbal Theories.... Have a Great Day with Your New Found Speculative Knowledge...:)
 
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Alter ego

I have that queer feeling that nmgolfer, green with envy, having been ejected from this forum, is speaking though the mouth of Bronco Billy.

Exactly the same type of nonsense, meant to be vicious, but appearing silly and so pathetic in its infantilism.

There are indeed many with severe personality deficiencies acting it out on various forums.
 
John,

If I had the definite answer on how to hit the sweet spot each and every time I would be inclined to cash in on it and advertising it as follows.

Definite solution to all of your frustration in learning golf. It will reveal the final and ultimate secret of how a small guy, barely 100 pounds soaking wet, crippled with severe arthritis, standing on one leg and swinging with one arm, can effortlessly hit it over 300 yards, whilst simultaneously either smoking a big cigar or signing autographs for the many admirers crowding closely.

Just three easy payments of $39.99 and it all yours. Guaranteed, your golfing buddies will plead strongly with you to find out how you got almost overnight to swing with such grace and effortless power. It is up to you to either share your secret or to have them, at least for a little while, scrutinize jealously your swing hoping to discover your secret, whilst you are cashing in their money.

Mandrin,
Genius and rapier wit ??? – I am quite defenseless.:D
 
My thoughs:
Not exactly real life (not golfer, but iron byron), but very interesting examples.

1a-4a sustaining the lag, max trigger delay.
Reminds me of Sergio, he even looks like he's working hard.

1d-4d snapping the chain
The way to swing driver nowadays or any club when you are not trying to deloft it.


And - stopping positive shoulder torque does not mean that pivot stops.


For johnpritch I would comment that I think it's pointless to argue if forces caused by linear or centripetal acceleration exist or not. Question could be, if you can solve a problem without using them, which seems to be the aim for most physics scholars.
“A Match For Gravity” example, that Mandrin presented a while back, would look to be a tough one to solve without using them. But them again, I'm not a scientist myself.
 
Ok Mandrin, I guess people are just so interested in this linear force at the last little bit of the downswing to inject a little more speed into the swing. Having said that, I have a question that is along the lines of this linear force/shortening the radius topic.

I have been thinking about this concept and I believe that I have heard Brian Manzella state something that is similar to this concept, so hear goes:

Would it be a good idea to inject some energy into the last little bit of the downswing by trying to put as much distance between your left foot and your left shoulder as you possibly can, thus accessing the use of linear force/shortening the radius concept? Some players that I think utilize this method, whether they are consciously trying to or not are Geoff Ogilvy, Tiger Woods, and many others.

Also, do you think that this method has anything to do with helping snap your kinetic chain? I believe that it does.

Thanks again for all the hard work you have put into your posts and all that you contribute to this forum!
 
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