Anti-Summit/Manzella Symposium Topic Thread

[Brian Manzella]

Reading and Comprehension.....

So the expert Dr whatever his name is was really just polishing snt backside for them , but behind the scenes he was saying check out the Manzella Matrix or Mcleans X-factor for the optimal performing pivot train?

You ignored my post and the intent of ALL of my very correct answers.

I could do EASILY do this symposium without a biomechanist.

But...

What would the golf world say if a person who doesn't understand the body wasn't CONFIRMING the other two scientists conclusions.

Listen to this and listen good:

We are not presenting any methodology at this symposium. Topics and questions will be asked STRICTLY about the science, not about anyone's method.

We DON'T CARE A LICK what we find out, we just want the truth of real science to be explored.

I am NOT presenting ANYTHING. Not my stuff, not my ideas, ZERO.

I am moderating.

Cadeus, you have no idea what will go on at this symposium, but you sure sound scared to death.

 

[Steve Khatib]

I cant wait to find out what parts of my current teaching is wrong and why! Sounds crazy doesnt it, but it actually helps me in the long term.

How lucky are we to have this critique.......

My sincere thanks to all who are supporting this.

 

[blehnhard]

Summary / Synopsis

Brian -

Will you be offering a "Summary / Synopsis" of the conclusions reached at the Anti-Summit/Manzella Symposium?

I am sure that many would be happy to pay a fee for this knowledge.

Thanks - Bruce

 

[gmbtempe]

Some interesting follow up comments from John Graham in the comments section of the blog, sounds like he is not 100% with Brian's account? He stated he has reached out for more clarification from the people who made the statements. I guess there is video out there to be posted.

 

[ggsjpc]

It isn't a "Science" discussion, and we will not discuss "fitness" issues at my Symposium.

There is already a "World Fitness Summit," and the S&Ters are speaking.

So it sure will come up there.



We want to talk about science, nobody else is doing a symposium like it.



The video from this will explain it better than I can if it is not edited.

Here is EXACTLY what happened...

The Chiropractor/Physical Therapist said he had seen a lot of S&T students on TOUR, and they all had back issues.

Almost immediately, Dave Phillips of TPI jumped up out of the audience in a Kanye West moment, and "corrected" the expert saying that S&T was not a reverse pivot.

The Chiropractor/Physical Therapist had said noting about WHAT the S&T pattern was, so why did Phillips jump up so fast?

He is the head of the TPI Fitness Summit, and the S&Ters are presenting, and he was protecting his "ball sales."

So to speak.

At the end of the talk, the Chiropractor/Physical Therapist was asked BY JOHN GRAHAM this:

(paraphrased) "Technique aside, what method is the easiest on the back mechanically?"

The Chiropractor/Physical Therapist said.....after deliberating for a long time, "S&T if done correctly."

It was very odd to say the least, but not surprising in a teaching world where EVERYONE BLOWS YOU UP BEHIND YOUR BACK, but nobody has the balls to do it in front of you or an audience.

And that's a fact, Jack.



First of all, you guys have never seen Neal in person, or asked hm about his stuff in person, or seen him at work.

That shoe is now on the other foot.

Anyhoo, there are four world-renown experts in golf bio-dynamics:

Phil Cheetham, Greg Rose, Rob Neal, and Chris Welch.

We originally had Phil and he couldn't make it, so we almost asked Chris Welch but he was out of the country, but I decided on Dr. Neal becuase we had communicated in the past on my TrackMan HSP-to-3D machine alignment theory.

Now, I haven't read Dr. Neal's paper, but, I like the fact that he has a willingness to speak his mind and back it up with science.

The point of this symposium is for the scientists to BE CHALLENGED. Otherwise, it is just another boring seminar.

Anyone is welcome to take their best shot at Rob, and I am sure he welcomes it.

On the other hand, you guys NEVER want, and NEVER DO "debate" anyone.

You can show up, or I'll ask the questions for you.



I have a new pattern that I am working on at the request of GTE member who asked me to develop an "easy on the older body" pattern.

It is called "Easy Does It."

It don't look like anything we are discussing, or anything you have seen from me.



Yup.

Brian,

Just out of curiosity, have you seen the video on AMF? It was interesting watching it again. It was a great couple days. Good to see you again.

JG and the BManz - We don't always agree but we keep it civil

 

[Brian Manzella]

Shades of the Homer Audio Tapes.....

At the 3rd AMF Teaching Summit in Dallas, one of the topics was "Injury Prevention/Performance Improvement," and the speakers were Rod Cook (an instructor) and Dr. Troy Van Biezen, a chiropractor/physical therapist on the PGA Tour (for the tour).

You just HAD to be there.

This is why I videoed the ANTI-SUMMIT.

Too may interpretations of what actually happened.

After watching the video of the AMF presentation in question—over and over—this is my EXPERT opinion on how it went down.

My comments in bold italics....

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: [to the attendees] "How many look at their golfers from behind? (meaning the butt view)

(the majority raised their hands)

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: "Wow!

I've worked with some of the greatest coaches in the world and they've never done that."

Obviously, He thinks the best teachers are the famous ones and the ones on tour.
​

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: "The reverse spine angle keeps me in business"

"It is the #1 cause of back pain"

(Rod Cook poses a top of the backswing position identical to Stack & Tilt)

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: "...he's done already."

"...its going to create a lot of compression shearing forces on the right side."

"the best thing to do is get the hips/spine square and level (at address) and turn behind the ball"

(Rod Cook then poses a backswing with more shift and forward bend than Lindsay Gahm)

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: "...I've worked with some of the guys who do stack & tilt and they have back pain."

"...I work with two of them who do stack & tilt, we put them on our 3D motion machine, they actually get to the right side, their center of mass does..."

DAVE PHILLIPS (who is not presenting, but was mentioned by Dr. Troy when stack & tilt was brought up): "I'll say one thing..I'm like Kanye (because of the taking the floor)..don't misinterpret what stack & tilt does, cause there 's a lot a great things stack & tilt can do...you need to make sure physically, you can do this....reverse spine angle is as you start to rotate, you lose your forward flexion....that's not what stack and tilt does....what they do is retain their forward flexion....(posing a very NON stack & tilt backswing pivot)...

No Dave.
​

Wrong.
​

The Stack & Tilters tell their students to LOSE their forward flexion early in the backswing (it's their book) .
​

...and replace backward bend with side bend...there is no good and no bad (in swing methods)...lots of different ways....

It should be noted here that Dave Phillips is having the Stack & Tilters speak at his upcoming seminar.

Then he starts selling physical assessments....no kidding.

There was then one or two very awkward claps by the audience.
​

I asked Dr. Troy if maintaining forward bend would be easier on a stiff/non-flexible golfer and he didn't answer directly but he he agreed that your shouldn't try to get them to straighten up to kep their heads between their feet if they couldn't.

Many, many, can not.
​

.............................................................


And here we sit at John Graham's questions to Dr. Troy.


JOHN GRAHAM: "Anatomically in your field, do you believe there is a best way (to swing/method) that is easy on the body?"

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: "Do I feel there's one best way? No.

JOHN GRAHAM: "Just anatomically/method and golf swing wise, as far as ease on the body for injury prevention...is there a best way?"

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: "...hard question, because everyone's individual and everyone has there own limitations...'

JOHN GRAHAM: "what if they don't have any limitations...?"

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: "...ah.....eh......is there a best golf swing?....(Dr.Troy walks toward Dave Phillips table)...is there a best golf swing? (looking right at Dave Phillips table).....

JOHN GRAHAM: "Is there an easiest way on the body."

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: (long teeth clenched load inhale through mouth "issssssssss") alright so....you're going to make me do this.....

ROD COOK: Troy actually, let's go back to that, let's do this!

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: "..quick answer, anatomically if its done correctly, regarding the low back, stack and tilt if it's is done correctly....wow...there are factors there....

Then he defends the Stack & Tilters somewhat.
​

John, I don't bet a $100 on many things, but if you wish, I'll have 100 people view the tape and see of they think:

#1. You were leading a horse to water who DID NOT WANT TO DRINK.

#2. Dave Phillip influenced this a bunch.

#3. His first answer was a quick—no.



I'll let you out of the bet if you want.

 

[ggsjpc]

Here is EXACTLY what happened...

The Chiropractor/Physical Therapist said he had seen a lot of S&T students on TOUR, and they all had back issues.

Almost immediately, Dave Phillips of TPI jumped up out of the audience in a Kanye West moment, and "corrected" the expert saying that S&T was not a reverse pivot.

The Chiropractor/Physical Therapist had said noting about WHAT the S&T pattern was, so why did Phillips jump up so fast?

He is the head of the TPI Fitness Summit, and the S&Ters are presenting, and he was protecting his "ball sales."

So to speak.

At the end of the talk, the Chiropractor/Physical Therapist was asked BY JOHN GRAHAM this:

(paraphrased) "Technique aside, what method is the easiest on the back mechanically?"

The Chiropractor/Physical Therapist said.....after deliberating for a long time, "S&T if done correctly."

It was very odd to say the least, but not surprising in a teaching world where EVERYONE BLOWS YOU UP BEHIND YOUR BACK, but nobody has the balls to do it in front of you or an audience.

And that's a fact, Jack.

Here's my original post:

"For all of you that are unaware, I am at an AMF meeting today(Monday and tomorrow) in Dallas, Texas. AMF is an organization of like minded golf professionals that will get together to share information on all subjects golf. Each year, there is an AMF Instructor Division Summit that brings a bunch of us together in an effort to learn and share ideas about the golf swing and/or playing golf. It’s a great place to network and learn some new information about teaching this great game.

Our first presentation was from Rod Cook and Dr. Troy Van Biezen about the subject of “Injury Prevention/Performance Improvement.” A nice presentation on some of the physical issues juniors are beginning to face and some steps they have taken to help prevent golf related injuries. Dr. Van Biezen gave us some staggering quotes about numbers of doctor visits that were occurring each year related to golf. Care to guess? If you said 15 million, you are a brighter person than me. 15 million doctor visits related to pain created from the golf movement.

From all accounts, Dr. Van Biezen is a leader in the industry as confirmed by TPI founder Dave Phillips and many other golf professionals that use his services. He is certified in a special category of soft tissue rehabilitation called A.R.T. This stands for Active Release Therapy and we were recommended to find an A.R.T. doctor to join our team in working with our students. There was a long discussion about information that was covered in the first TPI Golf Fitness Instructor seminar about physical problems and their impact on the golf swing and the likelihood of future injury.

One of the big areas Dr. Van Biezen mentioned that contributed to a great many injuries was the combination of reverse pivot in the backswing and reverse ‘C’ position in the follow through. Very shortly after that because we all were golf professionals, some one noted that those things looked like what some had read about the Stack and Tilt swing. Instantly, Dr Van Biezen became somewhat uncomfortable and asked Dave Phillips to respond to this area. Dave was also quite reluctant to answer but rather reminded everyone exactly what the Stack and Tilt backswing should be like and that it wasn’t a target leaning spinal condition at the top of the backswing. Rather, it is a spinal tilting to the golfers left side that is rotated.

Shortly after, Dr Van Biezen tells some stories from his time traveling with the PGA Tour Fitness van about how many players are getting treated week in and week out. Some names get thrown around and some questions are asked along with some success stories.

I felt that this Dr Van Biezen seemed like a very bright and respected guy in the industry so I put my hand up to ask the question everyone wants to know the answer to. I have a tendency to stir the pot a little and I thought I would give it a try. It gets to my turn and I ask, “In your opinion, relative to injury prevention, is there a best anatomical/biomechanical way to swing a golf club that is the easiest on the body?” “Is there a best way.” Dr. Van Biezen says, “You’re going to make me say it aren’t you.” I start to get excited. No one ever answers that question. I had no idea what was going to happen next. His answer……

Stack and Tilt!

The room shut down. All the talk stopped. Up till then, I could here little snickers about the system when they were talking about injury. This was especially true when the subject of reverse pivot and reverse ‘C’ was being discussed. During that talk Dr. Van Biezen mentioned that he had worked with some stack and tilters on there sore backs while he was treating players on tour.

He went on to say, assuming the player had no imbalances or weaknesses that stack and tilt presented the least amount of sheering forces in the spinal region when performed correctly. Amazing as it sounded to many, it just made me laugh. I love when people that don’t research get slammed. To me, and from second hand information, it seems pretty clear that TPI is in agreement with what Dr. Van Biezen was saying. I hypothesize that this information will come out in a big way at the TPI World Fitness Summit but that’s just a guess.

Please feel free to ask any questions or leave comments on this post. Hopefully, at some point, AMF will post the video of this presentation and all doubt will be cleared up about if what I am saying actually happened. My guess is some of you won’t believe me but I promise you the information contained above is accurate. "

At the 3rd AMF Teaching Summit in Dallas, one of the topics was "Injury Prevention/Performance Improvement," and the speakers were Rod Cook (an instructor) and Dr. Troy Van Biezen, a chiropractor/physical therapist on the PGA Tour (for the tour).

You just HAD to be there.

This is why I videoed the ANTI-SUMMIT.

Too may interpretations of what actually happened.

After watching the video of the AMF presentation in question—over and over—this is my EXPERT opinion on how it went down.

My comments in bold italics....

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: [to the attendees] "How many look at their golfers from behind? (meaning the butt view)

(the majority raised their hands)

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: "Wow!

I've worked with some of the greatest coaches in the world and they've never done that."

Obviously, He thinks the best teachers are the famous ones and the ones on tour.
​

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: "The reverse spine angle keeps me in business"

"It is the #1 cause of back pain"

(Rod Cook poses a top of the backswing position identical to Stack & Tilt)

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: "...he's done already."

"...its going to create a lot of compression shearing forces on the right side."

"the best thing to do is get the hips/spine square and level (at address) and turn behind the ball"

(Rod Cook then poses a backswing with more shift and forward bend than Lindsay Gahm)

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: "...I've worked with some of the guys who do stack & tilt and they have back pain."

"...I work with two of them who do stack & tilt, we put them on our 3D motion machine, they actually get to the right side, their center of mass does..."

DAVE PHILLIPS (who is not presenting, but was mentioned by Dr. Troy when stack & tilt was brought up): "I'll say one thing..I'm like Kanye (because of the taking the floor)..don't misinterpret what stack & tilt does, cause there 's a lot a great things stack & tilt can do...you need to make sure physically, you can do this....reverse spine angle is as you start to rotate, you lose your forward flexion....that's not what stack and tilt does....what they do is retain their forward flexion....(posing a very NON stack & tilt backswing pivot)...

No Dave.
​

Wrong.
​

The Stack & Tilters tell their students to LOSE their forward flexion early in the backswing (it's their book) .
​

...and replace backward bend with side bend...there is no good and no bad (in swing methods)...lots of different ways....

It should be noted here that Dave Phillips is having the Stack & Tilters speak at his upcoming seminar.

Then he starts selling physical assessments....no kidding.

There was then one or two very awkward claps by the audience.
​

I asked Dr. Troy if maintaining forward bend would be easier on a stiff/non-flexible golfer and he didn't answer directly but he he agreed that your shouldn't try to get them to straighten up to kep their heads between their feet if they couldn't.

Many, many, can not.
​

.............................................................


And here we sit at John Graham's questions to Dr. Troy.


JOHN GRAHAM: "Anatomically in your field, do you believe there is a best way (to swing/method) that is easy on the body?"

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: "Do I feel there's one best way? No.

JOHN GRAHAM: "Just anatomically/method and golf swing wise, as far as ease on the body for injury prevention...is there a best way?"

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: "...hard question, because everyone's individual and everyone has there own limitations...'

JOHN GRAHAM: "what if they don't have any limitations...?"

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: "...ah.....eh......is there a best golf swing?....(Dr.Troy walks toward Dave Phillips table)...is there a best golf swing? (looking right at Dave Phillips table).....

JOHN GRAHAM: "Is there an easiest way on the body."

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: (long teeth clenched load inhale through mouth "issssssssss") alright so....you're going to make me do this.....

ROD COOK: Troy actually, let's go back to that, let's do this!

DR. TROY VAN BIEZEN: "..quick answer, anatomically if its done correctly, regarding the low back, stack and tilt if it's is done correctly....wow...there are factors there....

Then he defends the Stack & Tilters somewhat.
​

John, I don't bet a $100 on many things, but if you wish, I'll have 100 people view the tape and see of they think:

#1. You were leading a horse to water who DID NOT WANT TO DRINK.

#2. Dave Phillip influenced this a bunch.

#3. His first answer was a quick—no.



I'll let you out of the bet if you want.

Gosh, I could get better odds at the track. =)

For polls sake, who's initial post was closest to Brian's second post? His second post is 100% accurate but maybe leaves a couple things out like when Dave Phillips initially refuses to answer a question about SNT and injuries before his Kanye imitation but I'll just call that home court advantage. =)

JG

 

[birly-shirly]

Brian - I'm not doubting your version of things. To be honest, it sounds awfully like John's. Is there a difference?

My overall impression from BOTH your accounts is still that there was NO reason why Van Biezen had to even mention "stack and tilt". You make it sound like John led him like a hostile witness. But still, how hard would it have been for the guy just to say "No - there's no one swing or method that will be physically easiest for all comers. It all depends on the individual"?

You're not suggesting that either John or Phillips would have taken issue with that, are you?

 

[Brian Manzella]

My overall impression from BOTH your accounts is still that there was NO reason why Van Biezen had to even mention "stack and tilt".

He mentioned it, and he said the players he worked with that did S&T had back pain.

You make it sound like John led him like a hostile witness. But still, how hard would it have been for the guy just to say "No - there's no one swing or method that will be physically easiest for all comers.

He said just that...in his first answer. John questioned him several times more.

Listen, I applaud John for getting an answer, maybe the answer he wanted.

But—for clarity—here is what I am saying:

If Dr. Troy and Rod give this talk to the attendees, with no Dave Phillips in the room, and gets HANDED a piece of paper with John's initial question, he never ever ever says that S&T is the easiest on the back if the person can do it and they do it right.

I am quite sure he doesn't even know what "right" is, and neither does Phillips.




It all depends on the individual"?

You're not suggesting that either John or Phillips would have taken issue with that, are you?[/quote]

 

[gmbtempe]

Why would John Graham want that answer? Is he a stack and tilt teacher?