Are Brian's Lessons for the Advanced Golfer Only? (+ new Manzella BLOG!)

[birdie_man]

hjack!

Maybe your worst post of all time. Sorry man.

hi birdie

i have always believed that one man's garbage is another mans treasure.

True enough. Sometimes though garbage really is nothing more than garbage. (or just inferior)

There is too much of it hjack.

you said he is "way way way" ahead........but if you dont get the first "way" or the 2nd "way" everything else may go by the "way side"

Sometimes one will write a post (or in the real world- say something) when they are a little riled up. They will look back at it later and it will not look so good. Overdone perhaps. Even if that person did their best to try and "neutralize."

This is the day after, and for the most part, it still looks fine to me.

Of course not everyone will agree.

I really do believe Brian is (thrice) way ahead of his time though...

But every once in a while the divide bugs me. It hasn't for a while...

I'm just happy that I can still write a nice Internet Golf Rant.

i am a brian manzella fan........but i would not take a lesson from him.......

no disrespect.......but i on 90% of the things

i am clueless........screw the d-plane and the 4th accumulation, and the 5th this....and 7 that

just teach me to hit the FREkin...down the middle

but there are over 10, 000 people on here

and 10 participate..."yes yes.....exaggerated.....but you get the idea

hjack I feel like you should know better than that. Maybe I am wrong.

Brian, I am sure, easily could give you a lesson that would be very easy on your brain.

My post WAS a lot about the lingo BTW hjack. I think a lot of the TGM lingo that gets tossed around is at times a little kooky. I use it when I feel it's appropriate. Maybe if I am writing to someone who is "well-versed." Never to someone who isn't unless they want me to. And never would force it on someone.

A lot of it is plain incorrect too. Truthfully that is the bigger issue, to me.

As for The D-Plane, etc. The D-Plane is a brilliant concept if you can get it. Though even if you know that the ball starts close to the face and then curves away from the path you are ahead of the game.

There is a lot of technical discussion in here. I don't know what Brian intends to do in the future with it. (if anything) I enjoy it most of it.

You have to realize there are all kinds of different people in here. Teachers, etc. The forum serves many purposes.

Why wouldn't Brian want to get the word out on some of these new ideas of his if there were people who wanted to listen?

I'd say just tune it out if it doesn't appeal to you. Or ask questions. On anything for that matter. (i.e. your own golf game, specifically)

The "10 people that participate" in here I am sure would be glad to help you, hjack.

and with respect.......these other people didnt get to where they are by not knowing things

They (the "media gurus") know some stuff.

C'mon though. Golf instruction is still wacky. Too many people know it and at the same time too many people don't know it well enough.

When there is a guy like Brian who knows how to fix some of these most basic problems with people that are for the most part NOT currently being fixed near well enough......

How could you say "golfdom as a whole" (for some reason I will say that so as to not attach any personal blame) is doing anything other than a pretty bad job teaching people?

I don't even feel like arguing about it in depth at the moment. That may work against me but so be it. Thus I will mostly stick with a "bottom line" answer. "The bottom line as I see it."

I will say though, to give an obvious example, that something like Brian's Never Slice Again should be common knowledge. That is just giving one example. (and it is still just "a spit in the bucket")

hjack c'mon man...

 

[birdie_man]

hjack Angelina Jolie is overrated!

 

[thefuture37]

HJACK was a Manzella apologist not too long ago? what a turn around.

 

[Richie3Jack]

How good is your uncle? If Brian was able to help him in 5 swings...I don't know why you would think Brian could not help you out.

I believe you're selling Brian short because you really don't understand this Web site and his YouTube videos. Brian has an incredible amount of knowledge about the swing and the technical aspects of the swing. That draws a lot of readers and viewers that like to get a bit more technical. So when he starts talking about D-Plane and some other technical stuff, it's to appeal to those who are more technical about their game or those who want to learn more technical stuff about the game.

Confessions of a Former Flipper is a terrific example. Anybody can learn that. Doesn't take a genius. It's as simple and correct as it gets and will help you hit the ball down the middle.

Again, your logic seems a little weird...he helped your uncle in 5 swings, but for some reason he wouldn't work for you even though you've never gotten a lesson from him? I just don't understand that line of thinking. And strangely I feel that Jacobs is much more technical than Brian. (Not knocking Jacobs as a teacher, but that's about the biggest difference I see in the two).



3JACK

 

[HowardK]

3jack

it was michael jacobs uncle or relative...not mine


and correct i wouldnt care to take a lesson from brian


he is a good teacher..................just not for me

lets understand.....i cast no doubts about his ability...

and birdie......what was azingers key to winning the ryder cup

 

[birdie_man]

I don't know. What do you think it was, hjack.....?

 

[HowardK]

he is a good friend

he made up teams..

mickelson, furyk.......cink were the head of each group

used the others in connection with personality

h

 

[gumper]

Absurd premise

Hjack,

Your opinion is absurd, because it is based on what you *think* would happen *if* you took a lesson with Brian. I can speak from facts because I *have* taken lessons from Brian.

One of the most essential points about Brian's teaching is that he does just the opposite of what you are assuming he does. Brian breaks down TGM and his new research into terms that anyone can understand and execute. In fact, he always speaks in "layman's" language unless a student *asks* for the more advanced terminology.

You are entitled to your opinion that you would not want to take lessons from Brian, but to base that opinion on erroneous assumptions is absurd.

gumper

 

[thefuture37]

You are entitled to your opinion that you would not want to take lessons from Brian, but to base that opinion on erroneous assumptions is absurd.

*what a contradictory statement*

this thread is pretty entertaining though

 

[Richie3Jack]

and correct i wouldnt care to take a lesson from brian


he is a good teacher..................just not for me

Yes, but your rationale and logic is a bit vague if not short sighted. I can see if you had taken a lesson from Brian and didn't like it or didn't like the results.

But, your rationale seems to be that Brian is best for the advanced player and is too technical. There's a reason why he gets technical sometimes on this board and his YouTube videos...it's because that's what a good chunk of the posters and viewers want.

However, I feel you're mistaken if you don't think he hasn't worked with and greatly improved hackers and beginners who want very simplified golf instruction. Knowing golf instructors like I do, I would dare say that the overwhelming majority of his business comes from beginners and hackers who want simplified golf instruction.



3JACK

 

[gumper]

To me, it's as if someone said, "I won't go to a restaurant because it's too expensive," even if the facts are that the most expensive item on the menu is $10. The opinion is based on a faulty premise. I would think that most rational people would alter their opinions in the face of contradictory evidence.

Does this logic always apply? Absolutely not. A bigot, for example, will always twist reality to fit his preconceived notions. So will people who are completely illogical and/or irrational.

gumper

 

[2mongoose]

Doesn't add up

If you won't take a lesson from Brian and aren't learning anything then why are you still posting here? To stir the pot? Nobody's forcing you to be here.

To each his own I guess.

 

[Walt]

I would love to take a lesson from Brian. But, I do see hjack's point from just reading the boards. I have cff, nsa 2.0, and soft draw. I got them all before the whole trackman d-plane discussion came up. It has left me a little confused with all the 3 deg open with 2 deg lean will get the shot I am looking to hit. It also makes me wonder what might be good or not so good information in the videos of old. On the board at least, I always find the answers to be cryptic and I don't have the code book. I am sure Brian does a great job of explaining in person. But, lately I find most posts by everyone to be technical and whizzing over my brains puny knowledge of the golf swing. Walt

 

[Tom Bartlett]

HJACK,

I am very confused I feel like this thread is a set up for something else.

As per our last phone conversation, I explained to you what Brian meant by 'raise your arms' and you understood. And, as I told you then he was just starting out with the 'live shows' and was getting questions thrown at him left and right and was trying to answer every question in the simplest terms so that the entire audience could understand. Notice he has ditched that format.

As far as teaching anyone at any level...I will put Brian up against anybody. You must be skipping some of his posts when he talks about how popular and successful he made the junior clinics in New Orleans. Why would that be?

Brian has stated on many occasions that if the student doesn't improve it is the teachers fault, not the student (Ala Mr. Miyagi) and his failure rate is lower than anyone else. Why do you think that is? There is nobody better at taking someone who has never even seen a golf club and without words getting the person to hit solid golf shots. I've seen it several times and once was on camera when filming one of his videos before Katrina (I told him then to make that a video by itself) Amazing!

Also, on a few occasions during our phone conversations you stated that you would LOVE to take a lesson from Brian but couldn't afford it.

Again though, I feel there is something else going on here.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

I would love to take a lesson from Brian. But, I do see hjack's point from just reading the boards. I have cff, nsa 2.0, and soft draw. I got them all before the whole trackman d-plane discussion came up. It has left me a little confused with all the 3 deg open with 2 deg lean will get the shot I am looking to hit. It also makes me wonder what might be good or not so good information in the videos of old. On the board at least, I always find the answers to be cryptic and I don't have the code book. I am sure Brian does a great job of explaining in person. But, lately I find most posts by everyone to be technical and whizzing over my brains puny knowledge of the golf swing. Walt

If you have something that you don't understand then just ask. Again though, when taking a lesson from Brian or anyone worth their salt, the student doesn't have to know which end of the club to hold that's the teachers job.

BRIAN, if you have that video from the park, you should put it up. That will stop this instantly.

 

[Zztop]

quite the interesting thread. it made me think how in the world the old school golf teachers
ever could teach someone to fade the ball,draw the ball etc. especially using wrong ball flight laws, no video, no homer kelly book, did they just get lucky or did they do this and this
and got a result and when they liked that result they remembered it and put it in the old computer upstairs. they must of made a lot of mistakes before success. a lot of students were guinea pigs at the begining of they're teaching some helped some not.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

And as far as 10,000 members and only 10 show up...NO.

Over 10,000 people have signed up since day 1 and 60% to 70% of those 10,000+ sign on to the site on a regular basis. A lot just read and don't post.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I would love to take a lesson from Brian. But, I do see hjack's point from just reading the boards. I have cff, nsa 2.0, and soft draw. I got them all before the whole trackman d-plane discussion came up. It has left me a little confused with all the 3 deg open with 2 deg lean will get the shot I am looking to hit. It also makes me wonder what might be good or not so good information in the videos of old. On the board at least, I always find the answers to be cryptic and I don't have the code book. I am sure Brian does a great job of explaining in person. But, lately I find most posts by everyone to be technical and whizzing over my brains puny knowledge of the golf swing. Walt

I second Tom's thoughts. Im sure there are alot of people that sometimes get lost in a sea of info but thats what this forum is for. Post up and ask. You never know how many others are wondering the same thing you are but do not ask.

 

[Brian Manzella]

BLOG: Complexity, Simplicity, or Manzella-ized?

I'll never forget the day.

The year was 1986.

This gentleman had taken lessons from every teacher at the City Park Driving Range in New Orleans but me.

At the time, he was about an 18 Handicapper. But he was a very ardent golf instruction addict.

I couldn't wait for my chance.

He had a reverse pivot, wide open clubface at the top, roundhouse shoulders, or in other words, "all of the above."

His swing looked exactly the same as it did before his last five instructors started "teaching" him.

I worked hard on his pivot, showing him on video how different he looked than my models at that time.

We worked on his clubface, his plane angle on the downswing, and probably at least five other major things.

He hit it a bit better during the lesson, but left sort-of dejected.

When he told all the other teachers all of all the stuff I wrote on his lesson review card, they made fun of me for the next two years.

The student never came back, and eventually became a single-digit handicap, years later working with another teacher who was almost as technical as I was back then, but gave it out in smaller doses.

My tendency to over teach eager students probably got worse before it got better, as I started my protege-ship with Ben Doyle the next year.

It least I started teaching less stuff during a lesson, even though it was likely more information total over a series.

My current star pupil Lindsey Gahm, has no idea what an on-plane right shoulder is, what clubhead lag is, what a plane line is, what the difference is between the elbow plane and the turned shoulder plane is, and if she does or doesn't have "pitch" elbow.

She doesn't know how many degrees her spine is tilted at any part of the swing, but I did explain all of that in great detail to the guy in the 1986 lesson.

She does know she is supposed to tilt her axis on the downswing, but she has never heard of 24 components, 3 zones, 3 essentials, or 3 imperatives, and even though she is just 16, she can give Mr. 1986, 3 a side in 2009.

I've learned a few thing about teaching in the last 23 years.

Don't get me wrong, I could always teach. Francine Maunior was a 100 shooter in 1985 and a scholarship golfer at Samford in 1988.

Nakia Davis shot 99 in the last round of the New Orleans AJGA Stop in 1989 and started working with me a month later. Two years later in the same event she shot 71 in the last round, became the first African-American scholarship golfer in the SEC at Vanderbilt, played the Futures tour, and had a swing so pretty it was in the Tiger Woods golf video game for a few years.

Tom Bartlett started with me in 1986, and in 1989 was the youngest New Orleans City Champ since WW2. Mike Finney swung at it so good in college he literally attracted a crowd when he was practicing.

All the while I fixed 4,567 slicers, and 1,234 hookers, and made all my competition wilt, quit, or become TGM/Doyle/Manzella copycats.

This all happened before 1997.

That was the year I moved to Louisville to start a new teaching business from scratch.

Had I learned my lesson on how to not over teach by that point?

For the most part.

The problem I had though, was I was always working toward my long-term goals (still am), and I never sat still for long. Always trying new ideas, more video, less video, shorter lessons, longer lessons, new patterns I invented myself, and some I learned from others.

But, the biggest problem I overcame in my teaching was the giant "ball-and-chain" around my ankle for almost twenty years.

Poor information taught as gospel.

The "heavy hit."

Sustaining the Line of Compression, and sustaining a Flat Left Wrist.

Substituting the Plane Line for the Path.

Swinging and Hitting.

Horizontal Hinging.

Right Forearm tracing.

The Right Shoulder always going down plane at start-down.

Always a Flat Shoulder Turn.

Pivoting non-stop through impact.

Whew!

When I learned the truth about these things, things like the D-Plane, and the Kinetic Chain, were freed from the slavery in my mind.

I got back to really teaching what worked and what I had learned instead of teaching around that "list" ball-and-chain.

Anyone that would say I am too advanced to give them a lesson, is wronger than wrong.

I know how to read people. This a people business.

You don't need to even SPEAK to give a good golf lesson.

You don't even need to SEE the golfer to give one either.

I pride myself on being THE teacher that is as much all things to all people, as possible.

I couldn't possibly reach my goals any other way.

If you saw me give a typical beginner lesson, you might not be that impressed as you watched it.

Every word I say, and every move I make, has tens of thousands of hours of thought behind it.

These days I pride myself on being subtle and stealth.

You would be impressed with the before and after though. And if I played the lesson back on video, and paused and commented on why I did what I did, when I did it, I would blow you away with the depth behind every minute detail.

I can teach 5 year old boys, and 85 year old grandmas, as well as anyone who ever lived.

Give me a class of 25 adult education beginners and six hours over three weeks, and I'll show you the Rocketts of golf.

Trust me, in none of those instances could you get more complex than a first grade art class lesson.

Funny, you can't tell David Toms very much more than that on a PGA Tour event range either.

Lots of teachers want to show you how much they know in a lesson.

Some want to quote books chapter and verse like a Baptist preacher.

Plenty instructors can over teach without saying one correct thing the whole lesson.

Most what to shove some method down your throat no matter who you are or what you need.

I am none of those teachers.

"The Perfect Golf Lesson would be one where I watched you hit one ball, and spotted the root cause of all your maladies. I would then show you one move, one move I know from experience will make you do THE thing you weren't doing before. Once you were ready, I let you hit a shot, and if you did as I said, I'd wink and walk away, no charge." —Brian Manzella​

 

[Tom Bartlett]

quite the interesting thread. it made me think how in the world the old school golf teachers
ever could teach someone to fade the ball,draw the ball etc. especially using wrong ball flight laws, no video, no homer kelly book, did they just get lucky or did they do this and this
and got a result and when they liked that result they remembered it and put it in the old computer upstairs. they must of made a lot of mistakes before success. a lot of students were guinea pigs at the begining of they're teaching some helped some not.

I bet a lot of the old golf teachers, before T.V., internet, magazines, big money could teach circles around most of todays teachers.