Arm speed in the golf swing

[Jared Willerson]

Jared,
How would over-accelerating arms manifest itself in a golf swing?

A form of handle dragging. That has been the case with my own swing anyway.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Lindsey,
I know that speed is generally the aggregate of many well-sequenced good motions but is there one stand-out area that really contributes for you?

I really try to use everything when I hit. I don't try to get my hips open, I don't try to get my shoulders open. I try to swing my hands on the hand path I want as fast as I can. I just trust my body to assist in that goal. It ain't perfect, but I can move it when I want.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

If anyone could really figure out how to increase swing speed reliably, after fixing all swing mechanics, that person would be a very very rich person. I, personally, don't think anyone has it figured out just yet however Brian's research with handle rotation is at least getting us somewhere.

Here is what i do when i want to hit the ball further and have confirmed via trackman and on course that i do swing it faster and if impact is good ball will go farther:

At the end of my backswing i try to increase the rotational speed of my upper body while simultaneously trying to stop that rotation faster as well around impact. Whether or not it's accurate it's akin to the FEELING of snapping a wet towel on someone; to me anyway. I try to increase speed initially and then i decelerate HARD near impact and that club just comes whipping through.

your mileage may vary

 

[bertsmith]

Line of Compression, my defintion: In a pure strike, the sweet spot of the club contacts the ball in a manner so that the ball is trapped in the orbit of the club. At separation, the ball has backspin only. The path of the club that produces such a result would be the line of compression.

 

[dschultz6072]

I really try to use everything when I hit. I don't try to get my hips open, I don't try to get my shoulders open. I try to swing my hands on the hand path I want as fast as I can. I just trust my body to assist in that goal. It ain't perfect, but I can move it when I want.

Are you pretty fit or athletic?

 

[art]

If anyone could really figure out how to increase swing speed reliably, after fixing all swing mechanics, that person would be a very very rich person. I, personally, don't think anyone has it figured out just yet however Brian's research with handle rotation is at least getting us somewhere.

Here is what i do when i want to hit the ball further and have confirmed via trackman and on course that i do swing it faster and if impact is good ball will go farther:

At the end of my backswing i try to increase the rotational speed of my upper body while simultaneously trying to stop that rotation faster as well around impact. Whether or not it's accurate it's akin to the FEELING of snapping a wet towel on someone; to me anyway. I try to increase speed initially and then i decelerate HARD near impact and that club just comes whipping through.

your mileage may vary

Dear Jim,

I have been getting quite a bit of PM traffic lately, and in answer to a similar question about how to increase swing speed I suggested he first develop SIGNIFICANT additional lower body dynamic balance stability MARGIN. From analytical research and testing, even at the elite level, and a few professional teachers AND players, the results SHOW that this works, up to the players selected max of about 120% regular swing ENERGY, developing up to 10% more distance on top of the 10% from BBKIB.

Now, HOW to attain this ADDITIONAL STABILITY MARGIN was slightly different for each of the folks we tested, and I admit, in person, as I am sure you as a professional teacher have experienced, the STABILIZING PROCESS is golfer-unique, based upon WHERE AND HOW they develop their standard high club head speed, but several things are common.

Clearly, they got into a more powerful ATHLETIC and slightly lower and squatting set-up position. Also, since they previously had successful experiences with BBKIB. In some cases for just that day, BUT having recorded their performance for 10-20 swings on a FlightScope, they BELIEVED AND MOST IMPORTANTLY FELT the additional stability from the practice shots AND the recorded shots.

Seeing AND FEELING that success, and knowing their desire to hit it EVEN further than the usual 10%distance improvement already recorded, we go thru a simple additional preparatory procedure, NOT YET hitting balls, but taking HORIZONTAL SWINGS, and increasing the energy levels GRADUALLY. The purpose of this exercise is so they can FEEL, and I can SEE how their body accommodates the additional centripetal forces, as I ask them to gradually increase their swing speed from 50 to 120% of their PLAYING energy, using predominantly JUST the arms AND shoulder complexes.

The purpose of the horizontal swing plane is GEOMETRIC, as this plane of rotation produces significantly HIGHER DYNAMIC DISTURBANCES which during the ramp up from 50 to 120% the player has to contend with, and re-balance NATURALLY, based on the starting point AND MANDATORY BBKIB, at the start of every return to the down swing from the metronome-like exercise.

The visual INSTABILITY activity, mostly OBSERVING the movements of the left leg, knee and foot, is MY AND YOUR very INEXPENSIVE sensor to judge where after the 100% swing, (which I ask the golfer to audible-ize), the dynamic balance and stability is being compromised, AND HOW. That INSTABILITY point is usually reached by the golfer when trying to rotate their upper body faster, results in a NEW HABIT of creating a MORE HORIZONTAL SHOULDER SWING PLANE WHEN RETURNING TO THE REAL GOLF SWING. So, I simply ask them to try to send their lead shoulder UP their PERSONAL AND NATURAL swing plane when attempting to hit the next shot at say 120%, by their definition.

The usual outcome IS ADDITIONAL DISTANCE, but at the expense of accuracy and dispersion, but PROBABLY OK on some holes where there is additional landing room.

Without doubt though, the one CONSISTENT suggestion I make is that ANY ATTEMPT to swing harder for more distance, MUST COME from a desire to develop MORE TORQUE, NOT, I REPEAT, NOT MORE FORCE. Force usually comes from the desire to develop more LINEAR, rather than the desired ROTATIONAL movement.

So, in summary, BBKIB, get more athletically prepared, AND TURN YOUR ARMS AND SHOULDER COMPLEXES AS FAST AS YOU CAN, BUT KEEPING IN DYNAMIC BALANCE.

And Jim, about this making more money WHEN it works, I hope we BOTH are right, and absolutely no offense intended to you or anyone reading this, IMO, and stealing from a political line years ago, TO HIT IT FURTHER, "it's the DYNAMIC STABILITY, ST##$D.

Best regards,
art

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Are you pretty fit or athletic?

I no longer fit, but athletic yes. Fit would mean that I'm not overweight which I am, but I still work out and keep strong.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Here is my take on power.

The effortless power golf swing does not exist. I see all these folks talking about sequencing, lag and forward lean. Speed comes from muscles. Muscles all over the body are helping to stabilize and put bones into motion. That's it. You have to hit it with all you got and that takes effort! Physical, muscular effort. Ernie Els looks sooth and unhurried because he is BIG! His Muscles are bigger by default and consequently it takes less effort and looks as such. Sure, you have to apply it correctly with the right path, attack angle and face angle. but to hit it far you must use physical effort.

I was practicing last week and this member (nice dude) comes over to me and says that he wishes he could hit it further. I paused for a moment and thought whether or not I wanted to "get into it or not". Of course I got into it. I said "look, you only make half a backswing and then you just cruise on the way down like you don't want to strain yourself", "what do you expect?". I went on, "you love hitting fairways, but you bitch about being short", "either start practicing with the intent to hit it further or quit worrying about it". Further - "you have to TRY to move everything faster".

My father in law who cannot hit it out of his shadow at high noon is always telling himself to be "smoother" and "slow it down". I say be reckless and you will learn to gain control of it.

 

[tongzilla]

Here is my take on power.

The effortless power golf swing does not exist. I see all these folks talking about sequencing, lag and forward lean. Speed comes from muscles. Muscles all over the body are helping to stabilize and put bones into motion. That's it. You have to hit it with all you got and that takes effort! Physical, muscular effort. Ernie Els looks sooth and unhurried because he is BIG! His Muscles are bigger by default and consequently it takes less effort and looks as such. Sure, you have to apply it correctly with the right path, attack angle and face angle. but to hit it far you must use physical effort.

I was practicing last week and this member (nice dude) comes over to me and says that he wishes he could hit it further. I paused for a moment and thought whether or not I wanted to "get into it or not". Of course I got into it. I said "look, you only make half a backswing and then you just cruise on the way down like you don't want to strain yourself", "what do you expect?". I went on, "you love hitting fairways, but you bitch about being short", "either start practicing with the intent to hit it further or quit worrying about it". Further - "you have to TRY to move everything faster".

My father in law who cannot hit it out of his shadow at high noon is always telling himself to be "smoother" and "slow it down". I say be reckless and you will learn to gain control of it.

all i can say is...i have had swings where it felt much easier and effortless than my usual swing and the ball went much further than usual...i'm not talking about flyer lies or downhill+downwind....i'm saying properly further. Maybe I was using more muscle, but it sure didn't feel that way.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

all i can say is...i have had swings where it felt much easier and effortless than my usual swing and the ball went much further than usual...i'm not talking about flyer lies or downhill+downwind....i'm saying properly further. Maybe I was using more muscle, but it sure didn't feel that way.

Absolutely, we all have. Like I inferred, geometrical alignments matter, but they are limited distance wise by the amount of effort/work applied.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Here is my take on power.

The effortless power golf swing does not exist. I see all these folks talking about sequencing, lag and forward lean. Speed comes from muscles. Muscles all over the body are helping to stabilize and put bones into motion. That's it. You have to hit it with all you got and that takes effort! Physical, muscular effort. Ernie Els looks sooth and unhurried because he is BIG! His Muscles are bigger by default and consequently it takes less effort and looks as such. Sure, you have to apply it correctly with the right path, attack angle and face angle. but to hit it far you must use physical effort.

I was practicing last week and this member (nice dude) comes over to me and says that he wishes he could hit it further. I paused for a moment and thought whether or not I wanted to "get into it or not". Of course I got into it. I said "look, you only make half a backswing and then you just cruise on the way down like you don't want to strain yourself", "what do you expect?". I went on, "you love hitting fairways, but you bitch about being short", "either start practicing with the intent to hit it further or quit worrying about it". Further - "you have to TRY to move everything faster".

My father in law who cannot hit it out of his shadow at high noon is always telling himself to be "smoother" and "slow it down". I say be reckless and you will learn to gain control of it.

It's just not that simple, i know 2 people that debunk your theory quite handily:

1) One person is a very athletic, coordinated strong person, can't hit it very far at all. Needs to fix some swing mechanics which will help but even then, just can't create speed.

2) College buddy of mine who got me into golf, tiny guy, 140lbs soaking wet if he's lucky. I was way way stronger than he ever was or ever will be. He swings is around 118mph.

 

[birly-shirly]

Here is my take on power.

The effortless power golf swing does not exist. I see all these folks talking about sequencing, lag and forward lean. Speed comes from muscles. Muscles all over the body are helping to stabilize and put bones into motion. That's it. You have to hit it with all you got and that takes effort! Physical, muscular effort. Ernie Els looks sooth and unhurried because he is BIG! His Muscles are bigger by default and consequently it takes less effort and looks as such. Sure, you have to apply it correctly with the right path, attack angle and face angle. but to hit it far you must use physical effort.

I was practicing last week and this member (nice dude) comes over to me and says that he wishes he could hit it further. I paused for a moment and thought whether or not I wanted to "get into it or not". Of course I got into it. I said "look, you only make half a backswing and then you just cruise on the way down like you don't want to strain yourself", "what do you expect?". I went on, "you love hitting fairways, but you bitch about being short", "either start practicing with the intent to hit it further or quit worrying about it". Further - "you have to TRY to move everything faster".

My father in law who cannot hit it out of his shadow at high noon is always telling himself to be "smoother" and "slow it down". I say be reckless and you will learn to gain control of it.

I like it.

I believe that great sequencing or co-ordination can make a powerful effort appear smooth - but trying to look smooth isn't going to turn a weak effort into something more powerful.

 

[drewyallop]

This is a very interesting discussion. Thanks to all who contributed.

The speed/muscle question is only slightly less interesting the the mind/body problem. We know or have seen on tour small guys without much muscle mass swing very fast. Also, there are big muscle mass guys who swing very fast. When I watch mini tour pros practice live the first thing I marvel at is how fast their hand and arms move on the downswing. I mean it is just a blur. Even when the other body segments do not seem to be doing anything extraordinary the hands and arms are rocketing.


So how do they do it? Hand/arm acceleration from the top is so much faster then the everyday player. But where does this come from? And can it be learned/taught?

Drew

 

[rogerdodger]

Dear rogerdodger,

The forward arm speed is one of the graphs of the kinematic sequence as obtained from the Titleist Performance Institute, TPI/AMM 12 sensor systems (similar to Michael Jacob's new system), and even available from K-Vest as they also use the Titleist data bases, and place one of 3 sensors on the lead hand.

Just a few days ago, I had access to the new AMM "Walkabout" system, which also places a NEW Bluetooth sensor on the lead hand, and can be taken to the driving range, or even on the golf course.

Back to your question. All these systems record information and present a 'graph' of rotational arm speed in degrees per second referenced to the humerus/glenooid of the lead shoulder complex for the entire back swing transition and downswing.

The rotational speed of the arm has a complex but direct relationship to the eventual speed of the golf club head as it is the energy in this arm that provides much of the energy transferred to the golf club. Faster arm speed is good early in the down swing however, as the angular momentum of the accelerating arm transfers thru the wrists and hands, it accelerates the club, but the lead arm DEcelerates.

IMO, the higher the 'maximum' arm speed at its peak, approximately 2/3 of the down swing time, the higher the club head speed, and peak arm speeds of 900 degrees per second are common for good golfers. Page 60 of the TPI 3D Biomechanics Report used in their Level 2 Classes shows a range of 888 to 1038 degrees per second for accomplished golfers.

Hope that's clear,



Thanks Art, this was precisely the question I was asking. I was not trying to start a debate about pivot v. arms... I simply was curious whether arm speed added distance, assuming the same swing path. In watching Brian's youtube episode 8, the importance of swinging the arms across the body for speed is addressed. If you swing too far right, the arm speed only helps you hit bigger pushes in my swing. So path is important, but assuming the correct path, the faster one swings the arms on the correct path, the more forceful the hit. It likely involves deceleration as you indicate, a quarterback's arm not only slows, but almost stops when the ball is released. It is the initial force applied that propels the ball far. I am simply starting to think that the arms start down from the top in a good golfer much faster than it appears.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

It's just not that simple, i know 2 people that debunk your theory quite handily:

1) One person is a very athletic, coordinated strong person, can't hit it very far at all. Needs to fix some swing mechanics which will help but even then, just can't create speed.

2) College buddy of mine who got me into golf, tiny guy, 140lbs soaking wet if he's lucky. I was way way stronger than he ever was or ever will be. He swings is around 118mph.

Did you really read what I wrote?

 

[magicmarker]

#2 (the 140 pounder) was probably loaded with nothing but fast twitch, wiry, sinewy muscles... don't ask me how I know.

#1 (the athlete) was probably not as 'gracefully' coordinated as he appeared to be, lacking overall flexibility... the test would be... how well can he dance?

 

[dschultz6072]

Here is my take on power.

The effortless power golf swing does not exist. I see all these folks talking about sequencing, lag and forward lean. Speed comes from muscles. Muscles all over the body are helping to stabilize and put bones into motion. That's it. You have to hit it with all you got and that takes effort! Physical, muscular effort. Ernie Els looks sooth and unhurried because he is BIG! His Muscles are bigger by default and consequently it takes less effort and looks as such. Sure, you have to apply it correctly with the right path, attack angle and face angle. but to hit it far you must use physical effort.

I was practicing last week and this member (nice dude) comes over to me and says that he wishes he could hit it further. I paused for a moment and thought whether or not I wanted to "get into it or not". Of course I got into it. I said "look, you only make half a backswing and then you just cruise on the way down like you don't want to strain yourself", "what do you expect?". I went on, "you love hitting fairways, but you bitch about being short", "either start practicing with the intent to hit it further or quit worrying about it". Further - "you have to TRY to move everything faster".

My father in law who cannot hit it out of his shadow at high noon is always telling himself to be "smoother" and "slow it down". I say be reckless and you will learn to gain control of it.

I would tend to agree with this. Sam Snead was strong as an ox, and I'm sure Hogan was as well. Jack? No doubt. Palmer? You bet. Player? He lifted just to keep up. DeVicenzo? Beast. Oh, and before anyone goes mentioning Sadlowski...you'd be a complete fool to think he isn't ripped for his size. He's like a pit bull, straight sinew.

I think you can have awful mechanics and hit the biggest cut across over the top crap swing ever but if you have the strength to generate the speed, even if it's not the most efficient way to do it, you can still bust it out there. Take a look at this guy:

Anyone who knows at least a little about football knows this guy is a MONSTER. He might have a crappy swing, just as he has an awful throwing motion, but he still likely generates around 120 mph no problem. Most NFL QBs are long hitters, because they're strong, flexible, and fast with their arms (as in speed generation), in my opinion.

 

[dschultz6072]

Furthermore, why is the general response when you ask someone how long they have been able to hit the ball a long way something along the lines of, "Oh I dunno, I kind of always hit it far right from the start." Hm?

The Joker might need to quit all the squatting and flying and jumping all over the mats and just go hit the gym until his muscles fail.

 

[birly-shirly]

Art - could you please expand on what you mean by "SIGNIFICANT additional lower body dynamic balance stability MARGIN"?

How do you define it? How do you quantify it? How do you measure it?

Thanks

 

[art]

Art - could you please expand on what you mean by "SIGNIFICANT additional lower body dynamic balance stability MARGIN"?

How do you define it? How do you quantify it? How do you measure it?

Thanks

Dear bibly-shirly,

Great to hear from you again, especially with such an important set of questions.

Dynamic stability has several 'classical' definitions, but as truly an 'applied' scientist, I have 'applied' the basic principles to the golf swing. So it simply means, did the 'dynamics' (read this as the center of pressure movement on the ground) get better, or if small enough did it stay the same?

In the case of a golf swing, and Dan Goldstein's Dynamic Balance System (DBS), simply read this as, did the 'trace' stay within the balance area defined by the outside of the feet, and lines drawn across the toes, and the heels, known as '"THE BASE OF SUPPORT". (Google base of support, robotics for a great article, " Angular momentum in Humanoid Robot Balance Control').

This is where I believe the work I have enjoyed doing is unique, taking research in addition to the robotics industry, but combining it with data regarding the stability of folks in various stages of Parkinson's and other stability affecting diseases, and comparing the determinable golf swing created 'exceedances' to the healthy bodies ability to generate restoring forces, should an instability start to develop.

How it is quantified and measured at this stage of research, is simply the 3D center of pressure on the ground (a vertical vector in the case of the DBS), times the distance to the 'instantaneous' center of mass around which the upper and lower body are moving DYNAMICALLY, during the explosive downswing, the disturbing moment. Its magnitude is used to determine the degree of the problem, and due to the varying capabilities of each golfer to recover from say swinging on their toes, the 'STABILITY MARGIN', positive, or negative is calculated based on the unique 'dynamic' characteristics of the golfer. (size, weight, moments of inertia etc of the rotating elements).

In simple and descriptive terms, using DBS, it is the magnitude, AND TIME spent OUTSIDE the 'base of support defined above, and if trying to maintain stability, how quickly it returned back into the base of support.

Without a device like DBS, or better yet, 6 degree of freedom force plates, my 'practical' approach has been to carefully watch the DYNAMIC ACTIVITY of especially the lead leg, (knee, ankle and foot to ground interface), to get a QUALITATIVE understanding of the problem, which I ENCOURAGE YOU AND THE PROFESSIONAL INSTRUCTORS READING THIS TO INVESTIGATE. From my work,seeing subjects on force plates, and also watching their lead legs as identified, IMO (hopefully somewhat scientifically biased), the lead leg is a display of the approximate magnitude and severity of a golfers dynamic PROBLEMS.

Finally, if significant lead leg and foot to ground dynamics are seen, then make some dynamic stability ENHANCING suggestions, yes, BBKIB, BTTT, and lead shoulder up the swing plane, (LSUSP) as examples, and watch the distance grow, the dispersion shrink, injury potential go down (the Crunch Factor), and of course, the lead leg get QUIET, and stay on the ground better.

Thanks for asking, I have been anxiously awaiting for someone to allow me to display the DEPTH of understanding, and need of many golfers for at least BBKIB.

Best regards, always
art