Barry Bonds, Marion Jones......?

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Chris Sturgess

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....and it's you who doesn't know anything. Davis Love is a terrible example. Tiger early in his career had the same "flash" lag and whip speed the Love had. The strength comes into play on shots like stingers, heavy rough, buried lies.How about the ability to train longer for endurance, like Jim said? It's more like, can you break 90?

Ok, you don't sound like it but you can break 70. Do you think you have broken 70 because of your strength? Or do you think you can because of your skill?

Tiger had the same flash lag as Davis Love had? What are you talking about, what is your point. Davis Love doesn't have some huge amount of flash lag like Sergio Garcia, and he gets out of the rough as well as most anyone on tour, all while being weak.

Can I break 90? I can break 70 too and easily hit drives over 300 yds and I attribute none of it to having extra strength. I saw no difference whether I was way above average strength versus when I have been near average strength. I have also bench pressed 355 lbs in the past and know people who have used steroids.
 
Remember a few years back when John Daily said that drugs was being used in golf. The whole tour was pissed at him and I`ll never forget one scene that was shown were a bunch of players were gather together in anger and one player yelled (was a commentator, just went on the senior tour) said why dont you crawl back to the hole were you came from. Soooo
 
Tiger is not even very strong. Compared to an nfl linebacker he is a weakling. If he became as strong as an nfl linebacker would he be much different out of US Open rough? No.

I concur.

Truthfully how much strength does it take to blast a shot out of rough?

I think beta blockers and certain amphetamines are more usefulness in golf.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Chris, first off, i do know what I'm talking about. However, I think we are on opposite extremes on this topic. The Jones story just reminded me of how naive we can all be when it comes to our sports heroes. Do I think there will be a steriod problem on tour? No. But it's equally naive to think it's not going on. Whether it's a smaller guy trying to get a distance boost or a top 30 player trying to get up to the top 5. And i mean anything, incl beta blockers or whatever. I agree that talent, heart, and technique usually win out in the end. But in a sport that doesn't test, and is currently dominated by power, could you at least concede that it is possible that it is going on, even if you doubt the benefits? Then i will concede that I'm sorry i brought it up...:rolleyes:
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I concur.

Truthfully how much strength does it take to blast a shot out of rough?

I think beta blockers and certain amphetamines are more usefulness in golf.

BTW, in 2000 after massive changes to his physique, Tiger is the ONLY person in the entire field that could hit the shot he did on No.6 at Pebble in the Open. But naaah, it didn't have anything to do with strength, I'm sure Luke Donald could have hit it with that flawless technique.
 
BTW, in 2000 after massive changes to his physique, Tiger is the ONLY person in the entire field that could hit the shot he did on No.6 at Pebble in the Open. But naaah, it didn't have anything to do with strength, I'm sure Luke Donald could have hit it with that flawless technique.

I'm quite sure it was more than strength that allowed him to pull off that shot.
 

Chris Sturgess

New member
You don't even know exactly what that lie was like in the rough at Pebble. Sometimes a ball looks like it is sitting down in a really bad lie but actually isn't too bad and the ball comes out alright. Tiger hit that shot out of the rough because he has a great dynamic move at the ball and used a steep angle of attack. Not because he was strong. Tiger's technique is certainly better than Luke Donald's. Especially out of the rough since Donald is more of a sweeper. Tiger is not even very strong. It's a bunch of hype. KJ Choi is easily stronger than Tiger. You don't hear people freaking out about how strong KJ is, and how he is revolutionizing the game with his strength, why, because he hasn't won 3 us am's in a row followed by setting a record at the Masters, followed by dominating golf for ten years and looking like the best player ever. Brett Wetterich is also stronger than Tiger. People who know nothing about strength like Jim Nantz see that he's an amazing player and want to turn that into him being amazing in ways that he is not. And then people like you who also know nothing about strength buy into that hype and think you know what you're talking about.

Do you think you have broken 70 because of your strength? Or do you think you can because of your skill?

Try answering this question.
 
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I've always wondered if the over emphasis on Tigers 'strength' was a means to supplant his superior ball striking? I remember reading an article in the AJC early in Tiger's career that described him as more of a brute than a skilled golfer. The author had doubts about his skill on the greens. I wonder if that writer still has a job.

Strength helps; skill triumphs.

How much does an extra 20-30 yards off the tee lowers a players score?
 
Chris, first off, i do know what I'm talking about. However, I think we are on opposite extremes on this topic. The Jones story just reminded me of how naive we can all be when it comes to our sports heroes. Do I think there will be a steriod problem on tour? No. But it's equally naive to think it's not going on. Whether it's a smaller guy trying to get a distance boost or a top 30 player trying to get up to the top 5. And i mean anything, incl beta blockers or whatever. I agree that talent, heart, and technique usually win out in the end. But in a sport that doesn't test, and is currently dominated by power, could you at least concede that it is possible that it is going on, even if you doubt the benefits? Then i will concede that I'm sorry i brought it up...:rolleyes:


100% agree
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Chris, I honestly don't know what else to say. Somehow, you feel compelled to keep saying I don't know anything when some of your posts are asking answers to really easy questions. I've conceded alot to your argument. I REALLY DO agree with you that muscle doesn't trump skill. My whole point was strength is important and with all the cash on the line and competition so fierce, I'd be surprised if someone wasn't trying to get an edge. I've played events on every major tour in this country and with major championship winners, Ryder cup players, tour winners. I've taught many D1 college players. I have a pretty good frame of reference as to how these people think. They don't want to give up anything to the field. Your right, though, Tiger isn't strong compared to Choi, but if Choi had Tiger's pedigree and skill, maybe he'd be No. 1. It's the total package Tiger would be the first to tell you, without his strength training, he would not be the player he is... even with his skill. Strength is just another part of his awesome arsenal. I do, however, respect your passion for the topic.
 
Didn't Tiger himself say that his increase in strength has allowed him to be able to hit shots that he wasn't able to before?
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On the subject of performance enhancing drugs, there's probably not a sport in which the athletes wouldn't be able to gain some type of edge using using them. As someone stated earlier, it isn't just steroids (epo, for instance); they just happen to be the substance in the spotlight. By the way, one of the biggest benefits of steroids is enhanced recovery. With all the guys in their mid 30's to mid 40's playing on tour, why would it be unreasonable for someone who's trying to keep up with guys as much as 20 years their junior to contemplate using? Somebody's going to cross the line. The tour would be wise to test. Golf is supposed to be a gentleman's game, but there's no way that it's cheater-free. Finchem or anyone else who believes otherwise has their head in the sand.
 
Look at Jason Zuback man. I'm not saying it's steroids.....and long drive isn't the PGA.....but shoot........I'd say being STRONG must give you some kind of edge.

And........................it's pretty competitive out there too....

...

Not to say that it's rampant on tour.....just saying that someone somewhere might do it to gain an edge. (and I don't see why it wouldn't)
 
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Chris Sturgess

New member
I will say this, I agree that Tiger may have gained a small amount of ability by increasing his strength from when he weighed a very skinny 150 lbs to now 185. Like I said before if you are weak and skinny I agree that could have some drawbacks. But once a guy gets to be at average or a little above average strength there aren't really any noticable benefits past that. And nobody needs steroids or any strength enhancing drugs to get to a slightly above average level of strength, all they need to do is workout and eat reasonably. So therefore there is no real point to using steroids on the pga tour. In a sport like football, olympic sprinting, weightlifting, etc. where not just decent strength but crazy, freaky, nobody else has this..strength is needed to be on top then steroids make perfect sense and have a whole lot of effect on results. Maybe a guy on the pga tour is using steroids, but that guy would be pretty silly for doing so and getting very minimal results from it on the leaderboard. It would be like testing a linebacker or sprinter fro beta blockers. They can test for it ever week as far as I'm concerned but something like beta blockers or something that gave you greater motor skills should be the first thing they look for.

With Zuback and long drivers, they may be swinging extremely hard with no real accuracy worries so strength might factor in a little more but not much. It still doesn't really matter when you get past just being decently strong, freaky strength won't help them and thats the only thing someone would need steroids for. Zuback is hoping it will matter but really he just likes workout and be strong anyway. His big flexible swing is what really helps him. Look at Art Sellinger and Brian Pavlet, two major names, strong enough guys, but not at all juiced up workout freaks.
 
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Real test in golf isn't from drugs
By Scott Michaux | Columnist
Sunday, October 07, 2007

Admittedly, it's been hard mustering the outrage.

The indignation which comes so easily in sports such as baseball, football, track and field, cycling or swimming doesn't register so much as a blip on the heart-rate monitor when it comes to golf. It must be all the beta blockers keeping the blood pressure down.

Even so, golf's governing bodies threw their unsettled weight and considerable resources behind the announcement of a new anti-doping policy that will go into effect in 2008. They acted out of a sense of obligation as opposed to a sense of need. It garnered the muted polite golf applause for being preemptive and making sure that golf remains clean and free of cheaters.

In short, golf was forced to act like every other sport in the modern era.

One simple question - why?

It doesn't make much sense. The sport that already lost complete control of the equipment manufacturers who have juiced the tools and taken a certain element of skill out of the game is now trying to regulate what its performers put into their bodies.

If this was just about illegal steroids, it would be understandable. The whole idea of creating artificial strength - at a potential cost to personal health - is unseemly. Since other sports are failing every day to try to regulate that brand of performance enhancers, why not join the club for appearances sake.

But golf is stepping into an even murkier realm trying to regulate drugs that decrease heart rate, sharpen attention or increase stamina - basically all the things the pharmaceutical companies have trained us to do in our everyday lives. This is where the whole system leaves the rails.

How is the PGA Tour going to tell 2003 PGA winner Shaun Micheel, who suffers from low testosterone at the level of someone in their 70s, that he can't use the cream he rubs on his shoulders to elevate his levels to that of a normal 38-year-old man?

How is the tour going to tell someone suffering from high blood pressure that he can't take his beta blockers because it could eliminate his yips?

How can it tell some moody player who benefits from taking anti-depressants that he can't use them because it could unfairly help him control his emotions during a critical round?

Is Rich Beem not going to be allowed to swig his Pepto Bismol before rounds to sooth his nervous stomach?

What is so wrong with a perfectly acceptable and regulated prescription or over-the-counter drug having a side effect that benefits the taker in some other way? Isn't take that what doctors and lawyers and writers and construction workers do every day?

The point is, golf is not like the other sports where tainted players either tarnish the historical records or endanger opponents with unbridled strength. Golf success is not measured in time or speed or distance. It's holiest records are based on victories, not scores and yardages. Show me the pill that can break Jack Nicklaus' major records or outduel Tiger Woods down the stretch, and I'll change my mind.

If golf revered the longest drive as much as baseball does the home run, it would be different. If golfers were trying to break some speed or distance records such as track and field, it would be different. If golfers engaged in hand-to-hand combat and started hurting each other like in football, it would be different.

But golf is different. It measures greatness in different ways. You still have to get a stationary ball from point A to point B in the fewest number of strokes. The strongest guy doesn't always do that. Bubba Watson hits it farther than everyone, but he still hasn't won anything since he was a junior golfer. Many of these young guns can bomb it, but most of them still can't putt.

There is no doubt that taking steroids could make golfers stronger and make their careers longer. And if they find something that can be taken legally and safely, they should have that right. If drinking caffeine or ingesting nicotine or taking a prescription for Valium or Prozac helps your nerves, so what. There are plenty of weekend hacks who say the same thing about beer, and they've been experimenting in cooperation with beverage cart vendors for years to perfect just the right personal blend to maintain the proper level of buzz to keep the nerves down without losing control.

Golf didn't really need to draw any lines. If everyone started taking steroids and beta blockers, that relative historical standard defining good golfers would not change. You can do whatever it takes to be as strong as Tiger Woods, but beating him is another story. The same players who are good now would probably remain incrementally better than the same players if they were all juiced. The same courses would be getting altered to keep up just as they have been for the past century to keep up with technology.

Golf would survive even if a few players made some questionable personal choices that clouded their own long-term survival. There would be no Barry Bonds* or Marion Jones* or Floyd Landis* ruining the historical perspective by suddenly becoming a perfect specimen who hit every fairway or drove every green and made every putt.

Arnie Palmer would still be the King. Jack Nicklaus will still be the greatest Golden oldie. And Tiger Woods will still be on a path to be the best of all time.

Reach Scott Michaux at (706) 823-3219 or scott.michaux@augustachronicle.com.

From the Sunday, October 07, 2007 edition of the Augusta Chronicle
 
Steroids allow an athlete to become stronger, faster, more explosive, recover quicker and lose bodyfat, these would be good for any tour player. Not all steroids put on muscle bulk, witness the huge number of track and field athletes who use steroids and olympic weightlifters who stay the same weight for many years even though theyre always 'on'.
Having said that i dont think golf has a problem with drug use, as for Tiger he has been weight training for nearly 10 years has his diet spot on and has not put on a huge amount of weight (bear in mind he would have put weight on if he had never been in a gym due to aging and filling out).
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I just thought I'd give this thread a bump. Obviously nothing is proven and but the connection cant be ignored. This is how all the other players got caught. It was their connection to suspicious doctors and labs. I was just wondering after two years when I started this thread, do I still look like such an idiot? Does the majority of forum members still think golfers are immune to PED suspicion?
 
Tiger put on 30lbs of muscle and people think that he's super man! What would happen if John Daly lost 30lbs of fat?

Self

I am a former personal trainer, and I can tell you, it is 10X harder to put on 30# of pure muscle than dropping 30# of fat. You have to have EVERTHING dialed in - diet, perfect training regimen, recovery, and even then, it's VERY hard.
So yea, I can see these guys taking PED's - make no mistake - the right ones will help!
 
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