Ben Doyle

[benhogan54]

I have heard both positive and negative comments about Ben Doyle. I know Brian loves the man and teaches basically what Ben tought him. I also know that many TGM instructors don't agree with a lot of what Ben says.

What exactly is it about Ben Doyle's swing procedure that some instructors don't like?

I know that Ben worked directly with Homer Kelley and was the first AI. Does Ben teach the stroke pattern that Homer thought was the best or most efficient?

Even though Ben teaches a swinging procedure, could you still develop a hitting procedure from his videos and mat?

Thanks in advance for clarifications.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Ben will teach you ANYTHING you want, Hit or Swing or Both, fade or draw or both.

I have seen 'em all and he is BY FAR the best.

 

[Martee]

Actually I haven't heard what you have heard. Mr. Doyle seems very nice to talk to on the phone, my only contact.

What I have heard regarding the swing Mr. Doyle advocate is one procedure swing, max triggered sweep release. That is about the only description I have heard or been told.

My understanding, again second or third hand is that Mr. Sloan was the person who taught most like Mr. Kelley. He no longer teaches to the best of my knowledge.

Hit or Swing, I am sure he can teach it or fix it, but that may not be his perferred method, which is fine, as long as the student gets what he needs.

Ben's video demonstrates the 24 components and some of the variations for each component but not all. As I view the tape it appears that he has a set of components he sticks with the majority of the time. It would take a bit of work to hit vs swing as he demos based on the tape, but should be do able.

His tape has the same approach to the game many of the other AIs have, that is, chip then pitch then full swing.

The only negative I have for the tape is that the audio is a bit weak (I know turn up the volume [B)]).

There are about 17 or so GSED in the world, his name seems to appear in the top half of those but that is somewhat subjective based on what I read and heard. I don't believe that the AI's have been ranked, there are only three AIs as I have come to learn that are the caretakers of TGM, but I believe that there is a serious effort to get all AI's to pull in the same direction and put the best foot forward regarding TGM.

Sidenote, golfers are strange creatures, two instructors giving the exact same instruction will be precieved differently by the golfer. The interaction or whatever it is often tends to make ranking, etc. subjective and of little value at times. It is just one persons opinion. Kind of like this post, mostly my opinion with the experience and exposure I have.

 

[ragman]

EVERY instructor has preferred variations....

From what I've heard, Mr. Evans likes to teach a lot of arms and a hitting procedure...Doyle, Schaeffer, McHatton, Frick, etc. - more body action...seems like some are jealous/envious of all the praise/attention Mr. Doyle receives.....

If they knew HOW the 12 major joints worked, they would know that Doyle's swing is a lot closer to optimal for humans.......

But, ALL AI's should be ABLE to teach both...the pure essence of TGM...right, Martee, GSEB?

 

[benhogan54]

"If they knew HOW the 12 major joints worked, they would know that Doyle's swing is a lot closer to optimal for humans......."

I know you are fairly well versed in TGM. It also seems like you know a lot about kinesiology. What, in your opinion, is the best procedure? Thanks.

 

[Martee]

quote:Originally posted by ragman

EVERY instructor has preferred variations....

....

But, ALL AI's should be ABLE to teach both...the pure essence of TGM...right, Martee, GSEB?

That is the concept. The catalog of the golf swing, all golf swings.

I am not sure I would agree regarding Chuck Evans advocating an arm swing. Hitting, yes but what I have read and seen I would say he uses all 24 components and he is pretty clear that body is responsible for control other than the clubface.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Wow.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I have Spent HUNDREDS of hours with Mr. Doyle.

100's

H u n d r e d s...

These guys that talk about the man, haven't ALL added up to that much.

If there is a "Ben Doyle EXPERT", I am sure it would be Steve E. or Gregg M. or ME.

 

[benhogan54]

Brian,
If I wanted to spend time with Mr. Doyle, how would I go about it? Does he let people observe his lessons? Do you pay him for an apprenticeship? Just take lessons from him? In a few weeks, I will be living in Florida, so there is no way to see him regularly. I know I should probably call him and talk to him about it, but I thought I would start with you.
Thanks.

 

[ragman]

quote:Originally posted by benhogan54

"If they knew HOW the 12 major joints worked, they would know that Doyle's swing is a lot closer to optimal for humans......."

I know you are fairly well versed in TGM. It also seems like you know a lot about kinesiology. What, in your opinion, is the best procedure? Thanks.

The axle swings the wheel.

"Swinging" over "Hitting"

 

[bts]

quote:Originally posted by benhogan54

............
What, in your opinion, is the best procedure?

It depends entirely on the golfer. I believe Hitting provides more Control than Swinging.

Make sure you can distinguish the procedures.

And DON'T MIX THEM UP, which is fairly common among golfers.

 

[ragman]

quote:Originally posted by Martee

quote:Originally posted by ragman

EVERY instructor has preferred variations....

....

But, ALL AI's should be ABLE to teach both...the pure essence of TGM...right, Martee, GSEB?

That is the concept. The catalog of the golf swing, all golf swings.

I am not sure I would agree regarding Chuck Evans advocating an arm swing. Hitting, yes but what I have read and seen I would say he uses all 24 components and he is pretty clear that body is responsible for control other than the clubface.

I don't know how he can't advocate an arm swing when he says that the body ONLY supports and reacts to the arms and is there for balance...

The body has a lot to do with......EVERYTHING!!! IMHO

 

[bts]

quote:Originally posted by ragman

.....that the body ONLY supports and reacts to the arms and is there for balance...

while PUSHing something.

 

[benhogan54]

Ragman,
Can't the body support, but still lead? In TGM Kelley says that the body provides balance and support.

Also, Chuck has an article dealing with coming over the top and he talks about how the only way to come over the top is having incorrect sequencing of the body.

 

[Martee]

Chuck has said

quote:Ideally, their is a perfect blend of pivot motion and arm swing.

Hands controlled pivot.

Maybe he hasn't used the keywords to make the point?

I am not sure what is missing.

 

[hue]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

Ben will teach you ANYTHING you want, Hit or Swing or Both, fade or draw or both.

I have seen 'em all and he is BY FAR the best.

What makes him the best and sets him apart from the rest in your opinion? Thanks.

 

[dude]

quote:Originally posted by benhogan54

I have heard both positive and negative comments about Ben Doyle. I know Brian loves the man and teaches basically what Ben tought him. I also know that many TGM instructors don't agree with a lot of what Ben says.

I doubt if many people totally agree with the business plan or how Nordstroms, Wal-Mart and Target do business. To totally disagree with what one person does usually leaves way to many unexplored paths.

quote:What exactly is it about Ben Doyle's swing procedure that some instructors don't like?

Don't get caught up in rumors.

quote:I know that Ben worked directly with Homer Kelley and was the first AI. Does Ben teach the stroke pattern that Homer thought was the best or most efficient?

Was not with Homer as long as some may think. No in regards to stroke pattern but shows that there are many ways. .

quote:Even though Ben teaches a swinging procedure, could you still develop a hitting procedure from his videos and mat?

Would be very difficult from the vid.

 

[dude]

quote:Originally posted by ragman

EVERY instructor has preferred variations....

From what I've heard, Mr. Evans likes to teach a lot of arms and a hitting procedure...Doyle, Schaeffer, McHatton, Frick, etc. - more body action...seems like some are jealous/envious of all the praise/attention Mr. Doyle receives.....

Far from the truth!

quote:If they knew HOW the 12 major joints worked, they would know that Doyle's swing is a lot closer to optimal for humans.......

What? I think a review from 10-19 through 10-24 and the matching Chapter 7 is in order for a few.

[/quote}But, ALL AI's should be ABLE to teach both...the pure essence of TGM...right, Martee, GSEB?[/quote]

Untrue. There is a reason why there are 3 stages.

 

[dude]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

I have Spent HUNDREDS of hours with Mr. Doyle.

100's

H u n d r e d s...

These guys that talk about the man, haven't ALL added up to that much.

If there is a "Ben Doyle EXPERT", I am sure it would be Steve E. or Gregg M. or ME.

Brian, rumor, rumor and more rumors. Danny, Joe and Chuck have great respect for Ben. Let's consider it straight from the horses mouth. I speak with them quite frequently as you well know. Do they possibly agree totally with Ben? NO. You of all people should no that this would be unexceptable in my eyes and yours.

 

[dude]

quote:Originally posted by ragman

quote:Originally posted by benhogan54

"If they knew HOW the 12 major joints worked, they would know that Doyle's swing is a lot closer to optimal for humans......."

I know you are fairly well versed in TGM. It also seems like you know a lot about kinesiology. What, in your opinion, is the best procedure? Thanks.

The axle swings the wheel.

"Swinging" over "Hitting"

Wrong. Swinging and Hitting are both just as efficient and Hitting Procedure is as long as a Swinger. Even the book, "In Search For a Perfect Swing," dispells this. Mind you that I am in agreement with Homer that the book is very flawed but, look at the photos, separate the Swingers from the Hitters, and see what you discover.