Ben Hogan analysis by Brian Manzella

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David Alford

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Have you ever seen the video "In Pursuit of Perfection"? It was made by a guy who took home videos of Hogan's swing. Anyway, in the first part, he does his
own analysis of Hogan's swing. It's amazing, because almost everything he says seems remarkably astute. Quite a nice analysis. The only problem, it's an analysis of positions vs. what caused the positions. That's the problem here.

Position analysis can be helpful, it's better than not knowing what the positions are. But really, can't anyone look at Hogan's positions (above) and see the right elbow is straight or not straight, the left wrist arched or not arched, etc. etc.?

If I spilled my guts here, a lot of people would say, "oh, I knew that", etc.

I'm not so easily pleased. For me, if you know something, you should be able to demonstrate it. Maybe not as good as Hogan, but at least something reasonably close. Physical limitations, such as injury or advanced age would be valid exceptions.

Any good golf swing is simple. There's not a complex one out there that works. So, it logically follows, Hogan's is not complex either.

The simpler the better. But deriving the perfect simple forumula, is not so easy...millions have tried...the derivation is the hard part. Much harder than the execution. Please excuse me if I don't give away my years of hard work.

I will just say, Hogan's swing consists of a few modifications to a "traditional" swing formula. But, gee, it's so easy to be mislead and end up
doing something entirely wrong. And this is true even if one has read and reread Hogan's own books.
 
tongzilla

tongzilla

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quote:Originally posted by David Alford

<Second, his Flying Wedges are not in place -- more specifically, his right wrist is Cocked.>

Please define flying wedges and explain why they are not in place.
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Very basically, in order to have your Flying Wedges (6-B-3-0-1) in place, your Left Wrist must be Flat (forearm and back of hand form a straight line), and your Right Wrist must be Level (wrist-bone and the edge of the hand (to the first knuckle of the thumb) form a straight line). Ideally, they should be in place from start up to follow through, but you will find all great players having these alignments at Impact.
 
6

6bee1dee

New
quote:Originally posted by David Alford

Have you ever seen the video "In Pursuit of Perfection"? It was made by a guy who took home videos of Hogan's swing. Anyway, in the first part, he does his
own analysis of Hogan's swing. It's amazing, because almost everything he says seems remarkably astute. Quite a nice analysis. The only problem, it's an analysis of positions vs. what caused the positions. That's the problem here.

Position analysis can be helpful, it's better than not knowing what the positions are. But really, can't anyone look at Hogan's positions (above) and see the right elbow is straight or not straight, the left wrist arched or not arched, etc. etc.?

If I spilled my guts here, a lot of people would say, "oh, I knew that", etc.

I'm not so easily pleased. For me, if you know something, you should be able to demonstrate it. Maybe not as good as Hogan, but at least something reasonably close. Physical limitations, such as injury or advanced age would be valid exceptions.

Any good golf swing is simple. There's not a complex one out there that works. So, it logically follows, Hogan's is not complex either.

The simpler the better. But deriving the perfect simple forumula, is not so easy...millions have tried...the derivation is the hard part. Much harder than the execution. Please excuse me if I don't give away my years of hard work.

I will just say, Hogan's swing consists of a few modifications to a "traditional" swing formula. But, gee, it's so easy to be mislead and end up
doing something entirely wrong. And this is true even if one has read and reread Hogan's own books.
Click to expand...

So, I take this as a NO? No, you can't improve on what Brian graciously gave us?
 
S

strav

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Well done Brian. A melding of technology and passion working in unison, with golf as the beneficiary. It doesn't get any better than this.
 
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magic43

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Great analysis, Brian. I also found it interesting that Mr. Hogan increased his spine angle signicantly at the start of the downswing,as you so astutely pointed out, but was steadily increasing it somewhat thorougout the backswing to the top.

Anyway, good stuff!

Regards,

Magic
 
jeffy

jeffy

Banned
quote:Originally posted by hue

Brian : IYO is this the vintage Hogan pattern ? I know he changed it a few times through his career.
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I think this sequence was taken at the 1955 U.S. Open, two years after Hogan's best ever year of 1953. However, in his reporting on the tournament, Herbert Warren Wind said something about how Hogan had shortened and tightened his swing for that year's Open, to improve his accuracy over the tight Olympic, so maybe this swing is not as "full" as it normally was at that time.

This attached swing sequence is from the 1965 Shell's WWOG and seems a touch longer, even though Hogan was ten years older:

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/Video/hogan.mpeg
 
D

David Alford

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Tongzilla, I think that's plain silly. The wrist angles do change at least somewhat throughout the swing, depending on the swing model.

I don't want to get into another tit for tat here. I look forward to Brian's additional analysis, but these may be my last comments on Hogan's swing in this thread. It is Brian's show, and there can't be two ringmasters.

If his analysis is "as good as it gets", you (that's YOU, Dear Reader) should be able to execute. Take Brian's analysis, study it, practice it and then go video tape yourself. Does your swing now look like Mr. Hogan's?
 
R

rundmc

Banned
quote:Originally posted by David Alford

Take Brian's analysis, study it, practice it and then go video tape yourself. Does your swing now look like Mr. Hogan's?
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With all due respect to Mr. Hogan . . .

If it don't then there are the THREE IMPERATIVES!!!!
 
Jayro1

Jayro1

New
What allows Mr. Hogan to keep his right arm bend so deep into his swing? I run out of right arm way before that.[:I]
 
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rundmc

Banned
quote:Originally posted by David Alford

Mr. Hogan's secrets are the antecedent(s) to those THREE IMPERATIVES!!!!
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No beef with you David or Mr. Hogan . . . Just saying that basically nobody except Mr. Hogan knew what his secret was. However, there are quite a few people with resume to prove that you can get it done a lot of ways . . . secret or no secret. Mr. Hogan had a method that without debate worked for him. But it wouldn't necessarily work for everyone at least without adjustment.

The Three Imperatives are there for everybody.

On the other hand . . . I would be very interested in hearing about the antecedents to the Imperatives.

Neither of theses posts are intended to be disrespectful to you or Hogan. And possible that it is my ignorance of the antecedents as you say. I am all ears and open mind.

Thanks!

R
 
D

David Alford

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<No beef with you David or Mr. Hogan . . . Just saying that basically nobody except Mr. Hogan knew what his secret was. However, there are quite a few people with resume to prove that you can get it done a lot of ways . . . secret or no secret. Mr. Hogan had a method that without debate worked for him. But it wouldn't necessarily work for everyone at least without adjustment.>

Why, do you think his secret is so complex that no one but a genius could understand it? To the contrary, my friend.
What I have found in researching Hogan's swing, Moe Norman's swing, and in fact every valid swing model,
is that they are ALL very simple.

It is my belief you could employ Hogan's swing without adjustment. David Leadbetter wants you make adjustments. I disagree.
Of course, you'd just have to scrap your present swing if you were my student. That's the problem! Most people are unwilling to "let go". It's a lack of courage. Mr. Leadbetter, and Jim McLean for that matter, want you to sort of morph your swing in the direction of Hogan's, making adjustments from what Hogan actually did.

A better approach is simply to do what Mr. Hogan did!

Let me continue this line of reasoning. So far, I have not found a single Golfing Machine concept that I did not understand or already know. What I don't know is the terminology, such as "flying wedges", etc. because these are simply his definitions.

The essence of good instruction is not to try to make things mystical or complex, but to make them understandable and doable.

If you demystify Hogan's swing, it is quite doable. Mr. Hogan himself felt this. Have you read his own comments on this matter?
I happen to agree with him...

I will agree a beginning golfer will have a tough time because he/her is still trying to learn swing coordination.
Once you have hit a LOT of golf balls you develop swing coordination. It might take a few yrs. or a few decades, it just
depends how much you practice and sadly, at what age you begin....

THEN, IF you have dead accurate information, you should be able to get into ANYONE'S swing
not within a year, or months, or weeks, or days, but within minutes!

I'm NOT claiming because I understand Tiger Wood's swing that I can hit the ball as far as him. But, I can
do a decent job of demonstrating his swing (for example). Or anyone's swing. Mac's, Hogan's, Moe Norman's, etc.

For me, the main problem is getting dead accurate information. Some of these golfers, like Moe Norman, can't even
describe accurately what they are doing. Once I discovered what Moe really did, I felt like laughing, it's so simple.
But no...he has to be a savant genius!

And, as much as I admire Hogan, he doesn't escape my critque either. Why? I'll tell you...because his book is full of inaccuracies, errors, and internal contradictions.

I will say, if TGM has no inaccuracies/errors, as some claim, that is very good! Every book should be that way. Errors, even the slightest errors create huge problems from the student trying to learn from a book.

Gott'a go...
 
R

rundmc

Banned
quote:Originally posted by David Alford

Why, do you think his secret is so complex that no one but a genius could understand it? To the contrary, my friend.
What I have found in researching Hogan's swing, Moe Norman's swing, and in fact every valid swing model,
is that they are ALL very simple.
Click to expand...

David,

Thank you for taking time to respond. I'm not sure that "Hogan's Secret" is too complex for comprehesion. It may be simple . . . it may be complex. But does anybody know what it is? Some people claim that he told them. And those that claim to know all have different versions.

You said that Hogan has the antecedents to the 3 Imperatives. I am certainly open to knowing what they are particularly if they are simple.

Thanks!

R
 
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rundmc

Banned
quote:Originally posted by diggerdog

What David is trying to say that everyone here has missed is that Ben Hogan was hung like a race horse.
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Don't know about Hogan but they say they don't call John Daly Long John for nothing. Supposedly he has an antique table leg down there.
 
M

MizunoJoe

New
"On the other hand . . . I would be very interested in hearing about the antecedents to the Imperatives."

"You said that Hogan has the antecedents to the 3 Imperatives. I am certainly open to knowing what they are particularly if they are simple."

Don't hold your breath!
 
R

rundmc

Banned
quote:Originally posted by bantamben1

ok rundmc and diggerdog are officially homo's "not that there's anything wrong with that"
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It's documented in that who's your caddy book . . .?????
 
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