Ben Hogan and his Three Right Hands

[mrodock]

just notes..

keeping the right elbow driving toward the bellybutton...

maintaining right arm bend into release...

the belly of the right forearm maintained to the sky...

the"v", the power package relationship maintained..

Hogan says he begins his release, sequential, somewhere at waist level...

looking at the amount of bent right wrist, it almost appears to be straightening just a wee bit into release, maybe an illusion...

this could be the coolest post on this entire forum, way to go tourdeep! fantastic!

 

[bantamben2]

I always here people talk about how cupped hogans wrist was at the top, but i never see it in pics or video, hogan had a slightly weak grip wich you could see at the top of his swing as an ever so slightly open clubface. His wrist always looks flat to me at the top and if he did cup it with that grip his cluface would be toe down way open but that isnt the case. Hogan has a very conventional swing to copy with a slightly weak grip because he wnted to err towards a fade.

Cool bantambem. Ya I'm a Hogan fan for sure.

...

Look at that left wrist tho eh?

Hmm....

In the Start Down....flat....

Betcha there was no lack of wristcock either....(I bet anyway)...

(Lots of guys think that to be able to have that much cock.....he had to Double-Cock and Bend the left wrist or have a stronger grip....or shift to a stronger grip at some point in the swing....heh...)

....

Possible that from the Top....to that point (where the clip starts)....that he shifted from Double-Cocked to Flat?

I'm not so sure. (but you never know I guess)

 

[mrodock]

I always here people talk about how cupped hogans wrist was at the top, but i never see it in pics or video, hogan had a slightly weak grip wich you could see at the top of his swing as an ever so slightly open clubface. His wrist always looks flat to me at the top and if he did cup it with that grip his cluface would be toe down way open but that isnt the case. Hogan has a very conventional swing to copy with a slightly weak grip because he wnted to err towards a fade.

very well said, I agree completely.

 

[David Alford]

very well said, I agree completely.

I don't. Normally, Hogan's left wrist was slightly cupped at the top. Intentionally.

 

[birdie_man]

I always here people talk about how cupped hogans wrist was at the top, but i never see it in pics or video, hogan had a slightly weak grip wich you could see at the top of his swing as an ever so slightly open clubface. His wrist always looks flat to me at the top and if he did cup it with that grip his cluface would be toe down way open but that isnt the case. Hogan has a very conventional swing to copy with a slightly weak grip because he wnted to err towards a fade.

I agree man. I haven't seen as much as a lot of ppl (don't have any vids or anything)....but lots of stuff on the net.

Don't see it.

It's just not as cupped as it's made out to be....i.e.:

"But Hogan had a CUPPED wrist!"

...

Typical Hogan left wrist from what I can see:

Tiny tiny almost non-existent cup. And not cause he tried to cup it either.

As Brian has explained....if you go from a "karate hand" to a "left hand golf grip hand"....voila....small appearance of a cup.

 

[Perfect Impact]

The left hand is most perfectly aligned to the grip when there IS a hair of a cup or "dish angle."

And you can prove it to yourself as well as see it for yourself with the following: if you do chinups, there is great force on your hands at the wrists, CAUSING the hand to align itself with the pole --the wrist virtually can NOT cup much, NOR bow much: the resting place FOR the wrist angle when stressing it in this way DOES HAVE bit of a dish angle; it is the fact that force pulls the forearm bones into line with the center of the pole. So when applying massive force to the grip end of the club with the left hand at start down, the force DOES align the forearm to the shaft the same as for a pullup exercise, such that a line drawn through the forearm will pass through the middle of the grip. Hence the dish angle.

 

[David Alford]

I agree man. I haven't seen as much as a lot of ppl (don't have any vids or anything)....but lots of stuff on the net.

Don't see it.

It's just not as cupped as it's made out to be....

The photo above is from a selected sequence and you don't know what frames preceded it (I have the entire published sequence, but that also may not be complete), i.e. if the wrist was more cupped at the true top - or...if Hogan what type of shot Hogan was working on in this sequence.

I'll repeat: normally Hogan's left wrist had a slight but quite noticeable cup. It was more than a "hair" of a cup.

For those who think I'm still wrong, I suggest you seek out Hogan's "secret" article in the 1953 Life Magazine article, right on the magazine's cover, you'll see Hogan posed at the top from down the line, demonstrating unequivocably what I've stated. It really couldn't be any clearer.

 

[birdie_man]

I know I know I've seen that one....

It's the only one I've ever seen tho where it's that bent....(that I'VE seen)...

Shaft looks unstressed to me....posed? And it's only one picture...

What do u think David...?

 

[birdie_man]

The photo above is from a selected sequence and you don't know what frames preceded it (I have the entire published sequence, but that also may not be complete), i.e. if the wrist was more cupped at the true top - or...if Hogan what type of shot Hogan was working on in this sequence.

I'll repeat: normally Hogan's left wrist had a slight but quite noticeable cup. It was more than a "hair" of a cup.

I have a hard time believing for some reason that in the sequence from the top (black and white one) his wrist was bent at the top....

 

[rundmc]

Cup/dish is a POSITION . . . I think the way to look at this is how the clubface/sweetspot is ALIGNED with the left arm.

VERSUS

 

[birdie_man]

But more cupped will affect the clubface.

...

You have a point tho....it differs somewhat for different grips....so you have to know that, first of all.

+ swivels or no swivels (Single vs. Standard).....Arched/Flat/Bent.....how much wristcock...

 

[David Alford]

I know I know I've seen that one....

It's the only one I've ever seen tho where it's that bent....(that I'VE seen)...

Shaft looks unstressed to me....posed? And it's only one picture...

What do u think David...?

I don't think it is posed. & I think the historic golf sequence pic at the top is actually a split second into the downswing.

I will say, you are correct in being suspicious. We probably both agree, given the state of golf instruction, a lot of b.s. gets passed off as "truth".

The serious golf student/investigator ends up being almost paranoid about these things.

In reality, not enough care is given to teaching accuracy. The innocent student has no idea just how bad things are...

 

[Perfect Impact]

"I will say, you are correct in being suspicious. We probably both agree, given the state of golf instruction, a lot of b.s. gets passed off as "truth".

The serious golf student/investigator ends up being almost paranoid about these things.

In reality, not enough care is given to teaching accuracy. The innocent student has no idea just how bad things are..."

On the money. And the pity is that telling him doesn't overcome his faith in what gets put out there. To say nothing of the sheer difficulty in communicating subjective stuff without it innocently being mis-interpreted.

And the schooled pupil when he hears REAL truth often will not accept it because it differs with his previous instruction or beliefs. So the good stuff goes right over his head.

He doesn't know what he doesn't know.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Interesting Post.

Here are a few tidbits:

In post #53, Hogan is on the elbow plane, AND in the pitch basic position.

Jim Hardy and the TGMers who like TSP downswings and Punch position elbow, must have cringed when they saw it.

It looked good to me.

Now, Ben Hogan had VERY flexible wrists and was VERY flexible otherwise.

And thisis why most couldn't copy if they tried. David Alford did pretty good, but I'd love to see it with a ball from multiple angles.

Hogan's swing is a Ben Doyle model and a Jim Hardy model and a Lynn Blake model, so it is "all things to many people."

I taught a young golfer---left handed--that when he was Hogan's size, at about 14 or 15 years old, that had a swing that was the closest I ever saw in person to Hogan's.

I TAUGHT HIM that swing, but I missed a very important part of Hogan's sucess and one I never see mentioned by anyone else (and so the student didn't play as well as he should have).

It is NOW (and has been for a while) part of one of my "Pieces" in my new book and exists on one of my current videos (in condensed form).

 

[golfbulldog]

Here are a few tidbits:



It is NOW (and has been for a while) part of one of my "Pieces" in my new book and exists on one of my current videos (in condensed form).

You enjoy the tease, Brian. ANy more clues as to which of your videos it is in?

When is the book due? Long gestation period for these things if you go the paper route - will it be an "e-book"??

 

[golfbulldog]

just notes..

keeping the right elbow driving toward the bellybutton...

maintaining right arm bend into release...

the belly of the right forearm maintained to the sky...

the"v", the power package relationship maintained..

Hogan says he begins his release, sequential, somewhere at waist level...

looking at the amount of bent right wrist, it almost appears to be straightening just a wee bit into release, maybe an illusion...

Do you think Hogan achieved thistight right elbow pitch position by ACTIVELY pulling elbow in ... or by letting the arms do what they naturally do IF he pulled with a massive pivot??

Love the action... Thanks

 

[birdie_man]

Here are a few tidbits:

In post #53, Hogan is on the elbow plane, AND in the pitch basic position.

Jim Hardy and the TGMers who like TSP downswings and Punch position elbow, must have cringed when they saw it.

It looked good to me.

Now, Ben Hogan had VERY flexible wrists and was VERY flexible otherwise.

And thisis why most couldn't copy if they tried. David Alford did pretty good, but I'd love to see it with a ball from multiple angles.

Hogan's swing is a Ben Doyle model and a Jim Hardy model and a Lynn Blake model, so it is "all things to many people."

I taught a young golfer---left handed--that when he was Hogan's size, at about 14 or 15 years old, that had a swing that was the closest I ever saw in person to Hogan's.

I TAUGHT HIM that swing, but I missed a very important part of Hogan's sucess and one I never see mentioned by anyone else (and so the student didn't play as well as he should have).

It is NOW (and has been for a while) part of one of my "Pieces" in my new book and exists on one of my current videos (in condensed form).

Yup....to me, it has to be the small details that make ALL the difference between hitting it like Hogan...and hitting it like someone trying to copy Hogan.

 

[golfbulldog]

Hogan's Elbow position at address

Shoot down at will - but this is my theory of a key piece of Hogan mechanics which i have overlooked until last few months.

Hogan , in lesson 2 of Modern Fundamentals, talks about elbow position at address.

"The elbows should be tucked in, not stuck out from the body..." and he goes on to say that each elbow-bony bit ( "olecranon" in medical language) should point at its corresponding hip bone.

If i really try to do this it makes my forearms "feel" tucked together - just like the feeling that you might imagine if your forearms were bound together with the rope - this is seen in the diagram in lesson 2. I know that everyone says that Hogan never played with the forearms so close together ( See Jim McLean video commentary) but i think that this was such a strong feeling for him that they got the drawing in there of the forearms bound together - BUT this is a drawing of his sensation and not of his reality.

ie. the drawing articulates his sensation caused by his elbow position and not a postion that one should place the forearms in.

To achieve this elbow position the movement is not one of forcing the forearms together but some degree of external rotation of the upper arm.

Getting this elbow in a similar position of the downswing is part of getting into a "pitch" elbow position. If it was not there at address it will probably not go there on downswing without gross exaggeration of movement.

Just a few thoughts i have had - anyone agree?

 

[Perfect Impact]

My experience of it is that you intentionally take your HANDS AND CLUB to the "right place" at the top and the DS then can proceed without specific reference to positions, in that your own innate sense of efficiency of motion will capitalize on your available resource in the right arm. The left hand in a FLW position and the right hand atop the left thumb takes care of business.

 

[golfbulldog]

...your own innate sense of efficiency of motion.. .

Is this innate sense actually PP3?