ggsjpc
New
I understand but how can you tell if it was miss aim or a mistake in face control/shape?
Best training aid for putter alignment?
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I understand but how can you tell if it was miss aim or a mistake in face control/shape?
Well if you eliminate the miss- aiming by not using the apex as aiming point, its a speed issue or face issue or both, work on one at a time till resolved to your standards.
Richie3Jack
New
Eliminating it down to mistake at address with aim or a mistake with aim at impact is far better IMO than aiming at the wrong spot and then making a series of compensations because of that.
And, like I said, when I go home and attach the laser aid, it shows marked improvement in my aim. I believe if one improves their aim at address it correlates to improving aim at impact.
It's not about certainty, it's about probability.
3JACK
ggsjpc
New
Change of topic..Did your charts come in?
Richie3Jack
New
Not yet, probably next week. I've used the numbers from one of the charts as a guideline and it's helped out quite a bit.
YAKUZA
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Richie,
You have discovered some charts(do you 'really' know that they are accurate?/how many assumptions were implicit in the creation of said charts?).
Do you think you know what I know?
Can you really make that massive assumption as to what I do or don't know as to the veracity of said charts?
You did not answer my question as to 'how you know whether you know how to aim or whether you hit it where you think you're aiming. Have you tested your aim for different breaks and different lengths on a green? How do you know whether you putting the ball in it's intended direction? How do you read a green? Do you try to putt every ball 12 inches past the hole? Why?
You have discovered some charts(do you 'really' know that they are accurate?/how many assumptions were implicit in the creation of said charts?).
Do you think you know what I know?
Can you really make that massive assumption as to what I do or don't know as to the veracity of said charts?
You did not answer my question as to 'how you know whether you know how to aim or whether you hit it where you think you're aiming. Have you tested your aim for different breaks and different lengths on a green? How do you know whether you putting the ball in it's intended direction? How do you read a green? Do you try to putt every ball 12 inches past the hole? Why?
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Btw champ,
I have had plenty of conversations with David Orr about these charts. He is very well versed with respect to them, and thanks to him, I have a pretty good idea about how they work. He knows a little more about them than you do!
Now rather than parroting some of the information, how about you do your own analysis, and educate us all as to why these charts work in the context of neuroscience, instincts, real world teaching versus second hand dogma, and also with respect to the feedback/results/implications loop that exists on the practice green?
I have had plenty of conversations with David Orr about these charts. He is very well versed with respect to them, and thanks to him, I have a pretty good idea about how they work. He knows a little more about them than you do!
Now rather than parroting some of the information, how about you do your own analysis, and educate us all as to why these charts work in the context of neuroscience, instincts, real world teaching versus second hand dogma, and also with respect to the feedback/results/implications loop that exists on the practice green?
Ah! the old instincts argument, that's a good one, better than some silly charts. I still like Kevin's sharpie line on the ball as the best way and easiest to use, if only i could aim it.
Also wouldn't it be better to have feedback/results/implications loop on the actual golf course where it counts, or can you take the practice green to the course with you? I admit it would be a little more bulky and awkward than those charts but just think of the feedback.
All seriousness aside i think Richie was just saying that it helps him and it may help others. Don't forget it's a Matrix out there. And by the way when you miss a putt it's no big deal, you always get another chance, just from a different spot.
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
If you learn to roll a sharpie line end over end your misses become clear cuz thats one variable you can eliminate so its prob aim or speed.
ggsjpc
New
Do you guys think it's possible to order the variables of a putt based on the degree to which you can control each one? It seems that the ordering might change for putts of different lengths. That said, I think face angle would be at the top of the list despite the putt length.
Starting from the lip, aim is probably easier to manage until a certain distance from the cup. Then, I think speed becomes the more manageable variable. There are obviously different ways to aim, but there's only one way to get the ball to stop in or around the hole. You apply the appropriate amount of force based on the spatial relationship your brain perceives when you orient your vision toward the hole.
This past season, I spent a lot of time on developing a consistent delivery speed. It has really helped me in determining what causes the ball to miss the hole. If I hit a putt that rolls at my delivery speed, and it misses, I know immediately that there was an error in aim or face. It's probably not as simple as that, but the increasing uniformity in delivery speed has at least helped me to partially dismiss the speed variable. It also makes it easier for me to aim if I have a good idea of how fast the putt will be moving.
Starting from the lip, aim is probably easier to manage until a certain distance from the cup. Then, I think speed becomes the more manageable variable. There are obviously different ways to aim, but there's only one way to get the ball to stop in or around the hole. You apply the appropriate amount of force based on the spatial relationship your brain perceives when you orient your vision toward the hole.
This past season, I spent a lot of time on developing a consistent delivery speed. It has really helped me in determining what causes the ball to miss the hole. If I hit a putt that rolls at my delivery speed, and it misses, I know immediately that there was an error in aim or face. It's probably not as simple as that, but the increasing uniformity in delivery speed has at least helped me to partially dismiss the speed variable. It also makes it easier for me to aim if I have a good idea of how fast the putt will be moving.
westy
New
DOCTOR EVIL...
GO.... get a ten dollar laaazzzzzer beeeeam from home depot.
Steal your moms compact case, destroy it and swipe the mirror.
Stick it to the face of your putter.
Put the beam at the end of your cave and point it at a ball on the dirt.
set up to the ball and aim at the beam.
Have someone move the ball away.
WOW.... are you really that far out....?
Practice every day till you can do it from different lengths and you get what you think you see.
Not that aiming matters.....much.
Impact matters.
Tomi or Puttlab for that....
GO.... get a ten dollar laaazzzzzer beeeeam from home depot.
Steal your moms compact case, destroy it and swipe the mirror.
Stick it to the face of your putter.
Put the beam at the end of your cave and point it at a ball on the dirt.
set up to the ball and aim at the beam.
Have someone move the ball away.
WOW.... are you really that far out....?
Practice every day till you can do it from different lengths and you get what you think you see.
Not that aiming matters.....much.
Impact matters.
Tomi or Puttlab for that....
mgranato
New
I've been working with "the charts" now for about 4 months, and they are exceptional at what they do. They must be tried and understood before any fair criticism should be leveled against them. Using them is just another tool for better putting, they aren't substitutes for any of the other critical putting elements necessary to putt straight with instinct and feel. What's the downside to having a better understanding of how to read planer sloping greens, whether it be with GM's "spider" or these charts?
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
I actually very much agree with this post!
Using information to get a clearer or better handle on the necessary skills....now that is the ticket.
Using the charts with disregard for the other skills...don't recommend that approach.
Richie wasn't saying to disregard other skills, where did you get that from? He was saying it's a tool he likes to use as it helps him.
Richie3Jack
New
westy
New
Metrics
Dont really want to make this sound like a trackman thread, but its interesting watching peoples stroke metrics change when the putt breaks differently on the TOMI. You see a nice looking stroke morph when the human goes from a flat putt to a breaking one.
Path goes all loopy to help the face move, and the face moves even more.
I think humans adjust the face mostly to make the ball go where they need it to, and distort their path as well.
I also think people think they know where to aim, but the reality is they have no idea. Its not simple. Invisible break is just the start.
Often humans also think they are aiming the face where they think they are, and they are not.
Dont really want to make this sound like a trackman thread, but its interesting watching peoples stroke metrics change when the putt breaks differently on the TOMI. You see a nice looking stroke morph when the human goes from a flat putt to a breaking one.
Path goes all loopy to help the face move, and the face moves even more.
I think humans adjust the face mostly to make the ball go where they need it to, and distort their path as well.
I also think people think they know where to aim, but the reality is they have no idea. Its not simple. Invisible break is just the start.
Often humans also think they are aiming the face where they think they are, and they are not.
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