Beyond Mechanics - The Mental Game

Status
Not open for further replies.
1. Do you work hard and SMART enough to deserve to be any better?
2. Do you care too much about what others think?
3. Are you overly perfectionistic?
Sounds like it...the zen stuff is great, but unfortunately it's too unrealistic in practice..gotta find a trick to get out of your conscious mind: count backward from 100 by 3's, play a song in your head, or better yet, use Gallway's 'back-hit' mantra. It's liberating. Ignorance really is bliss as long as your motor cortex can execute without interference.
 

ej20

New
Come on folks,lets just get our D-plane,handpath and coupling points in order....everything else is just show bizz.
 
Welcome back! Congrats on your son!

Thank you :)

Good perspective on the OP's query - is it the only approach you would recommend, or would you sometimes recommend working within his parameters?

Both are fundamentally completely rational beliefs but if you look at it from the sense of what is most beneficial to the individual, the arguments generally sway towards the position I advocate. It basically comes down to the core argument of whether you believe that people have different value in relation to one another and if you do, by what measure do you value personage?

Also, on what side of your theology debate do you reside?

I generally lean towards a loose form of Christianity but most of the time I usually debate on one position higher than the person I talk to towards my actual theological stance. For example with atheists, I would debate on the grounds of agnosticism. With agnostics, I would debate on the grounds of general theism. With general theists, I would argue on the grounds of monotheism....etc etc
 
Nice stuff Deadly Scope.
I love this kind of deep soul searching/thinking

Ive been a pool/ billiards player for 14 years and aspire to be one of the top ranked players in the world..
I feel as if i can unlock the right answer to these riddles that go on in our head i will be able to play effortlessly and calm and relaxed.

So what should ones mindset be when we are in a pressure packed event or outing ? How do we get out of our own way?

The first assumption you are making is that you need a special mindset for playing. While this may be true in some regards, perhaps raising your energy level before the match, it is not true of all things related to the mind. The social beliefs you set in life will also be the same beliefs you carry through to the pool table. If you watch your opponent play well and keep hoping for him to miss, you implicitly believe that his good play devalues you which is indicative of a social problem.

With regards to social pressure of an audience, there are two types of people. The first tries to give a good display as a gift, the other tries to play well for reasons of justification of self-worth. Anytime you feel that you are justifying your self worth, you have a fear of failure. A fear of failure is the source of many mental ailments which I hopefully can address in another post.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I love the psychology of coming to a club pro event and the first thing you hear from some guys is " I havent played in a week" "Havent touched a club since wednesday" or "Shoulders been bothering me" etc etc etc....

Fear of failure. Not taking responsibility for poor play. Blaming external factors.

Its hard to say..."Ive prepared and Im ready". Now if you play poorly, you have to look in the mirror. Its much easier to blame not touching a club or some phantom neck strain. No excuses!!!!!!!!
 

dbl

New
Kevin, ITA.

Have just stumbled into this area the last couple of months. Wow, an eye opener for sure once 'I' saw it.
 
Appreciate you feel that way but this is a fallacy called ad hominem which attacks the person rather than the temerity of the argument.



This is logically fallacious and again not debating against the temerity of the argument. Simply put, this is another way of saying 'sounds good in theory but doesn't work in practice'. The problem with is if something is correct in theory and is sound, it works practically too.

It also implies that lack of ability makes you feel emotion and therefore emotions are something you can't control. This is the same kind of thinking that causes abusive husbands to think their wife causes them to feel angry.



It is called accepting reality. You don't have to beat yourself up everytime you fall short of your self-imposed expectations.



Yeah, of course! What do the experts know!

I agree that it could seem magical to some who don't think this way and because they don't, they believe that because they feel that way that all others feel the same but just hide it.

Again, this not addressing the argument.



Thank you!

Finally! An actual objection to the argument.

Your point is basically on the motivation to improve but it's again a somewhat moot point because unless you can show that the inverse form is false, then you are merely selling a benefit which is also true of the position I raised.

I would assert that motivation to improve can come from intrinsic motivation from sheer enjoyment of the game. Just playing to be better than others is not a good motivation which leads you down a dark path. So motivation doesn't have to come from an extrinsic source by means of antipathy towards others.



If your saying that enjoyment grows as skill rises, I would agree with that. However, you don't need to beat yourself up in the process.

Deadly - I don't know if you're representative of amateur psychotherapists, but here's what I see.

A guy posts on here wanting to tidy up a few ragged holes of golf, and admits that he feels disadvantaged by a lack of distance.

You feel able to offer some "insights in his personality" based on a 400 word internet post.

You then accuse everyone who disagrees with your analysis of logical fallacies and avoiding your argument and, of course, ad hominem attacks - although attentive readers will have noted your attempt to equate my position with the psychology of wife-beaters.

Just to be clear - I like Gallwey and Rotella. That would explain why I recommended their books in the last paragraph of my post.

I also think that your brand of emotional engineering is largely irrelevant to a mid-teens handicapper. Not completely irrelevant - just not significantly relevant compared to upgrading physical skills. But by shifting the focus onto some level of psychic inadequacy, you just might deter someone from ever doing anything to actually get better.

You said:
It is called accepting reality. You don't have to beat yourself up everytime you fall short of your self-imposed expectations.

Who said anything about beating yourself up? Set goals. Perform. Assess. And go from there. No self-flagellation necessary. I don't recommend people distort reality, although there is evidence that irrational optimists perform better than realists. And comparatively few of my heroes distinguished themselves by accepting the status quo as immutable.

On extrinsic vers intrinsic motivation - basically I think that it's not as easy to disentangle the two as you seem to assert.

Am I extrinsically motivated or intrinsically motivated if I flush my driver and I think:

"Wow that felt good"
"Wow that went far"
"Wow that sets up a birdie opportunity"
"Wow that's the longest drive of my life"
"Wow that's the longest drive of my group"
"Wow. Chicks dig the long ball"

I'm happy to accept the evidence that intrinsic motivation supports excellent performance - but haven't you noticed that the most glaring exemplars of outstanding performance (and presumably high levels of intrinsic motivation) tend to appear in fields where there are benchmark measures of performance relative to the field?

3 times in your post you talk about either not beating yourself up or avoiding antipathy towards competitors. Where is that coming from - because it wasn't in my post. I can compete against an individual or a field and not hate them. In fact, my 4 year old son can compete against his big brother and not hate him. It's called "playing".

I like to know where I stand, relative to the field. The knowledge helps me decide what I can work on and what I can improve. I think it's the improvement that brings the satisfaction, not the moving "up the field".
 
To me - the mental, or non-mechanical, issue for you isn't whether or not you screw up a few times in a competitive round. The real issue is whether you screw up because it's a competitive round.

Do you know for a fact that you score significantly better when you play on your own? If so, how much? And where are you throwing away shots? I think you need to be able to answer these questions, with a bit of detail and certainty, before you can say whether you're really a basket case.:)

For what it's worth, you sound like a good playing partner!

It's definitely not only competitive rounds. I have no problem saying I'm a 16-18HI right now. I'm 56, almost 57. I know I can play and score. Just the other day I shot a 44 on the back 9 of a tough track with a double and a triple, a 52 on the front with a quintuple and a triple in a casual round. I can go along playing quite well and, then.. *bam*! Bif number and I'm reeling like someone hit me with with a big right-hander.. a few holes to recover.

Lack of distance hurts. A lot. I'm forced to hit 3-W on almost every Par4.. not a lot of room for error. I am starting to use 3-H or 4-H instead and 'lay up', but that almost guarantees a bogey (or worse if I miss my approach shot). Truly a dilemma.

Thanks for your kind words, btw.
 

dbl

New
KGC, what course yardage are you playing? I play 6200 and it's about right, but there are a lot of par 4's where in cool or in soggy conditions it feels like I am hitting 3I a lot. 3Wood "every time" for the par 4's sounds like selecting other tees would be in order.
 
DS,

Is there a reasonable basis for motivation, extrinsic or intrinsic? Extrinsic motivation is at least a time and space thing. Intrinsic motivation seems to hinge too much on connotative (and therefore potentially contentless) words such as "self-worth", and the like. Do we have a knowable universal on which to base a general expression of self-worth? Tough to take a man's extrinsic motivations from him unless you are prepared to offer him an intrinsically oriented system, don't you think? Without a reasonable base for intrinsic motivation, it seems to me that it is merely a more cleverly contrived external.

Congrats on the birth of your first child.
 

lia41985

New member
Matthew: I don't know whose journey into and out of "The Machine" was more epic, yours or Brian's. It's nice to have you back around here. I've always appreciated your thoughtful posts. Congratulations on the birth of your son and all the best.
 
ScottRobb, that made me think. Thanks

My advice still stands. Dr Carey Mumford is all over the "mental game". Like Brian he is a filter for all the bull being proliferated/rehashed by the popular "experts".
 
It's definitely not only competitive rounds. I have no problem saying I'm a 16-18HI right now. I'm 56, almost 57. I know I can play and score. Just the other day I shot a 44 on the back 9 of a tough track with a double and a triple, a 52 on the front with a quintuple and a triple in a casual round. I can go along playing quite well and, then.. *bam*! Bif number and I'm reeling like someone hit me with with a big right-hander.. a few holes to recover.

Lack of distance hurts. A lot. I'm forced to hit 3-W on almost every Par4.. not a lot of room for error. I am starting to use 3-H or 4-H instead and 'lay up', but that almost guarantees a bogey (or worse if I miss my approach shot). Truly a dilemma.

Thanks for your kind words, btw.

Well, it's my impression that most players in the mid-teens don't post their scores with just a handful of pars and the rest being steady bogeys. I think most mid-teens are (a) able to play decent golf for quite a few holes; (b) don't have quite the level of control to "cruise" in par figures; and (c) are always liable to a few blow ups. That to me is just normal golf. I think most average golfers just don't have the level of control required to stay out of OB and penal rough, or to not waste strokes around the green.

What's more, I don't know about your handicapping system - but the one I play under "neutralises" train wreck holes to no worse than a double bogey. That means, in part, that your handicap reflects your scoring potential on the majority of the holes of your round, but not necessarily your average round as a whole. I think, statistically, the handicap system still rewards lower handicap golfers. So if you're consistently a shot or two out of the money playing with better players, that's maybe a function of the handicapping system rather than your moral fibre.

That's not to say that you can't improve - just that I don't see this as a "mental" issue, and the fact that the same happens in your casual rounds would seem to back this up.

Hitting 3W to par 4s is tough though - no doubt about it. If you're already working with Kevin on your game, then that seems to me like a great way to tackle things on the skills and ability side.

The only thing I'd worry about is when you say that it takes a few holes to recover from a bad score. If that's really the case, then I guess you might need to take a look at how you talk to yourself on your way round, or standing over a shot. The Inner Game books by Tim Gallwey, and Bob Rotella's books, are good on this stuff IMOP. I don't know the Clear Keys stuff mentioned above, but it sounds worth a look.
 
No, he brought it up because it places him at a disadvantage.

Of course it places him at a disadvantage, but we're not talking about that. We're not discussing why he did say something but why he would say something.

I didn't presuppose that the mindset could change at will; it was much worse. I presupposed that the mindset can be simultaneously different. I'm playing with my best friend. I want to beat him badly. I lose and am disappointed, and simultaneously have the same amount of affection and admiration for him as I've ever had. Seems to be a paradox, but people negotiate it successfully every weekend.

Why are you still arguing this? I've already pointed out to you that even if you have the ability to do it in different contexts, this isn't an argument against the supposition that creating enemy images hurts you. Unless you can somehow show that this isn't true and it really does relate, everything you say here is irrelevant and just an unnecessary digression. You have to address that first otherwise debating this point has no purpose.

We don't even have to call him an enemy, but I do approve of creating an opponent image. That seems perfectly healthy to me.

Softening the definition. The redefine from enemy to opponent is very interesting.

Opponent is more neutral between the two viewpoints and applies to the role that they play in relation to the game. You could play with or against an opponent but you wouldn't really play with an enemy, only against; but if you play against an opponent, you are still having that enemy image.

It think a reasonable fear of failure is fantastic, it motivates us to excel. In fact, I think a lot of extrinsic motivations are perfectly fine.

Atychiphobia/Fear of failure puts the focus on 'what not to do' rather than 'what to do'. Fear of rejection and criticism are closely related and leads to procrastination and undermining our own efforts. Rather than poking around in the dark hoping that I happen to stumble on the objection you have, perhaps you could answer this: why do you feel that it motivates us to excel?

I agree, let's call him our comrade opponent.

Comrade thinking is the idea that we are all equal and working towards a common goal. If you accept this, why are we arguing? The word opponent only applies to the role the other person plays during the game but not the mindset towards him/her.

When you've lost previously, [self-imposed hurt] and then work on your game [out of the desire for retribution because you blame others for that hurt] and prevail[you believe you have been vindicated - makes the hurt go away and inflates the ego because you know believe your more of a man than the others]...that's a beautiful thing.

Sounds exactly like you are saying we should put a tight pair of shoes on to feel the relief of taking them off.

For the record, I don't approve of self abuse or tight shoes.

Good, then show me how I got it wrong.

Tell you what I will do is I will write the argument out in a proper deductive form and start a new thread. We need to start this again because this is becoming totally non-productive. You can write a reply to this post if you wish but let's not go around in circles.
 
Deadly Scope, it appears that I've frustrated you and I apologize. Perhaps I've lost track of my own reasoning. Let's start from scratch and I'll try to make more sense.

Here is something I have a problem with. It seems like you determined the OP had an "enemy image" merely because he used the word "against." And from that genesis sprung the explanation of all the various detriments of having that image of his opponents. Is this fair to say or not?

I'm not trying to set a trap, I just want to know if you really think that's sufficient to draw such far reaching conclusions. If he had used the word "with", would the analysis have taken a different path?

PS, if you want to start a new thread, that would be great.
 
I think that the basis for this thread is you are carding terrible scores on a couple of holes a round.

A few questions...

1. what do you feel is the root cause of these disaster holes
2. considering your strength and flexibility combined with your skill level, what do you feel is your biggest weakness... decision making, psychology, or just plain ability

Do you ever start thinking...."gosh I'm only 2 over par on my last 5 holes, now if i can just..... on these last 4 then i will shoot......" this is an open invitation for a disaster hole IMO.

Do you ever get to a point in the hole where you just feel like you have let yourself down up to that point and rush the last couple of shots just to get the hole over with, because that will leave a nasty taste in your mouth for a while if you gave a shot away in exchange for an extra 20-30 seconds. Sometimes you gotta buckle down and grind it out even if it is to make a double instead of a triple. EVERY stroke counts the same so you have to treat them all with respect, even if the hole's final score is not very respectable.

I dont mind getting red hot mad after a poor shot but I try my best process it and move on to the next shot SOON. Because the next one is more important than the last one. Sometimes that means warping reality to suit the rest of the round.

Example: last week I run a 25 foot birdie putt 5.5 feet past the hole and miss the comeback. I make a 5 and say a few choice words to my shoulder sleeve. I tell myself on the way to the next tee box that I knew I was going for the birdie when I hit that putt and tried to make it instead of lag it. I surrendered a shot that I didn't have to in the hopes that I would make it. In the end though, it is still a 5 and a 5 on that hole really wasn't that bad of a score and I gave the ball a chance to fall for a three. My ball may not have gone in for the par, but I hit the putt exactly as I planned and over read the break enough to lip it out. I stroked the putt end over end precisely on the line I chose to play. I tell myself I hit a good putt that caught the lip on the high side and if I was to putt it again after having never seen that break I would do it all exactly the same. I strive for confidence and remind myself that I am rolling the ball very well and that maybe the course owes me one now. A few holes later I drop a bomb from 50 feet for birdie and think "I knew the course owed me and now we are even" You have control over your mentality. You kinda have to be creative and find ways to build yourself up. Tiger and Hogan both are on the record as having said that they won't criticize themselves because there are plenty of people who will do it for you. I agree. Refuse to doubt your ability to play. Refuse to ever feel rushed when playing. Don't try to hit great shots, shoot for pretty good ones. They are far easier to execute and your misses will be less damaging. And I don't like the layup further back strategy, you can probably prove its worthless by dropping 10 balls 10-20 yards from the green and 10 more balls 20-40 yards and record your totals for holing out both groups of ten.

If bad holes bother you to this degree then you probably get swollen with pride after a few good ones too, also a problem IMO. 18 holes is a long walk, there will be good shots and bad shots and average ones. I wouldn't attach any emotion to how you hit any one shot. There are just too many and it will make you a roller coaster highs and lows. Strong body language, and an even keel temper will take you a long way. Stay confident without arrogance or insecurity. Be ready to swing, not excited to swing. Never look for aspects of the game you don't cross_match well compared to your companions. It is a game of numbers, how many remax long drive guys play on tour? You think they would intimidate David Toms on the tee box? Doubt it.
 
They better I am mechanically, the better shots I hit. The better shots I hit, the closer to the hole I am. The closer to the hole I am, the shorter my putts. The shorter my putts, the more putts I make. The more putts I make, the lower I score. The lower I score, the more confident I am.

My version of sports psychology
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top