Biomechanics

[shootin4par]

Discussions on here about science is real technical but the discussion on here about the movements of the body are almost non existent. Minor adjustments such as elbow position at address, right hand position at address, etc... can determine what muscles are used, but on board here where are the experts on the body? The body swings the golf club. SOme players have the "it" that "it" is meaning that their muscles fire in a certain way that other golfers dont. So how can we figure out how to make those muscles fire. An example would be if I rotate my left forearm I can do this while barely rotating my elbow, but if I rotate my left arm up by the shoulder, then the forearm and elbow rotate as well. SO if number 3 is a power accumolater, the person who rotates the WHOLE left arm and also the left forearm independently, that would just add to more speed. Hogan was the best ballstriker of all time, arguably, and he was a fitness instructor, Austin studied kinesiology and he owns the longest drive ever in a tourney. Coincidence?
what did hogan and austin really know?

 

[Spike]

Good topic. Sure would like to see this go a while.

One of the questions I have is how can we talk about forearm rotation separate from wrist rotation. Doesn't the wrist control the rotation of the forearm and upper arm?

 

[puttmad]

...

Good topic. Sure would like to see this go a while.

One of the questions I have is how can we talk about forearm rotation separate from wrist rotation. Doesn't the wrist control the rotation of the forearm and upper arm?

...

 

[hcw]

Biomechanics and Set-Up...

...are HUGE (imho)...you can do a lot of funky things with a swing, but if you set up for it to impact the ball correctly, it can work...gotta go feed the horses, so can't talk more, but this could/should be interesting...

-hcw

 

[puttmad]

....

what did hogan and austin really know?

...

 

[Spike]

The wrist doesn't control anything Spike..
To make the wrist rotate without the elbow moving, the radius bone and the ulna bone rotate around each other at their lower end which allows the hand (or wrist if you like) pronate and supinate..
Therefore the lower arm bones control the wrist rotation, not the other way around,,,

Thanks puttmad,

I think I was confused with wrist and hand, because when I do a horizontal hinge it feels like the hand is rotating the forearm. Is this a feel isn't real thing?

 

[shootin4par]

spike,
tuck your elbow by your left side and dont let it move, but you can still rotate your wrist without rotating your elbw or your humerous. now rotate your humerous at the rotator cuff and watch what happens to the rest of your arm, It must rotate

 

[Spike]

OK, I think I'm gettin' it......the upper arm, elbow, forearm and hand rotates.

Although, I must confess it is not a nice feeling in the shoulder....may be doing it wrong.

 

[RicoSuave]

inverse kinematic

Good topic. Sure would like to see this go a while.

One of the questions I have is how can we talk about forearm rotation separate from wrist rotation. Doesn't the wrist control the rotation of the forearm and upper arm?

The wrist doesn't control anything Spike..
To make the wrist rotate without the elbow moving, the radius bone and the ulna bone rotate around each other at their lower end which allows the hand (or wrist if you like) pronate and supinate..
Therefore the lower arm bones control the wrist rotation, not the other way around,,,

inverse kinematic or what we call hands controlled pivot:
if you have a look at this famous lamp:

there are two ways to put the light-head into the position you want:
1.) turn the base around the vertical axis,
turn the first boom around his horizontal axis,
turn the second boom around his horizontal axis,
turn the light-head around his horizontal axis
...................................... this is called pivot controlled light-head

2.) just grab the handle on the lighthead and pull it to the position
you want it to have it. (all the moving parts will react automatically)
...................................... this is called light-head controlled pivot

This is one of the first models we are constructing in our CAD-programs
to get to know, how IK works. We then define all the joints and their
way they have to behave and their resistances.
After this geometrical definitions and kinematic definitions, we are able
just to pull at the light-head and the joints react as they should.

This programming is nothing else than programming your computer,
teach the pivot, how it should work and educate your hands...
now your computer knows what to do if you just think of your hands,
and the programmed pivot is supporting the educated hands.

 

[birdie_man]

Austin learned to use the muscles and bones in a way that was in agreement with the way the body would naturally want to perform an action for maximum efficiency, as opposed to an action that is in conflict (the modern golf swing)....

The most important differences being...?

 

[shootin4par]

2.) just grab the handle on the lighthead and pull it to the position
you want it to have it. (all the moving parts will react automatically)
...................................... this is called light-head controlled pivot

The issue I see with number two would be any slight off move ment woudl put stress and the rest of the lamp could bind

imagine putting something in the ground the shape of a T and it is also somewhat flexible, like two yard reflector sticks. now you are going to spin this in circles with your pointer finger by spinning the horizontal stick. The closer your finger is to the center, the vertical stick, the less likely you will distort the straight up and down of the base. but if you spin it with your fingers far away from the base you can easily distort the base, your margin for error is magnified the further you get your finger away from the vertical stick

so the closer to the core of our spine we can control the golf swing the better off our chances of maintaining the proper angles

 

[Martee]

Wrist movement vs forearm movement?

Wrist can move vertical and horizontal without having the forearm move effectively.

Forearm movement always require the hand to move and the wrist tracks with it.

Can you rotate the wrist without moving the forearm?

Does the definition of the forearm include the elbow?

These are questions I have had for awhile.

Defintions that I have found...

rotation of the forearm

Pronation - A rotation of the forearm that moves the palm from an anterior-facing position to a posterior-facing position, or palm facing down. This is not medial rotation as this must be performed when the arm is half flexed. (See also Pronator quadratus and Pronator teres muscle.)

Supination - The opposite of pronation, the rotation of the forearm so that the palm faces anteriorly, or palm facing up. The hand is supine (facing anteriorly) in the anatomical position. (See also Supinator muscle.)

Kind of says the wrist does not rotate on its own it is the forearm/wrist/hand that is rotated

 

[shootin4par]

dont think you can rotate the wrist without rotating the forearm but you can move the hand a LITTLE, very little without rotating the forearm. you can rotate the forearm without the humerous rotating, but why not just rotate the whole left arm? By allowing the whole left arm to be free I would imagine you would get more power when you blast off the chest, rather then just the forearm rotating

 

[golfie]

dont think you can rotate the wrist without rotating the forearm but you can move the hand a LITTLE, very little without rotating the forearm. you can rotate the forearm without the humerous rotating, but why not just rotate the whole left arm? By allowing the whole left arm to be free I would imagine you would get more power when you blast off the chest, rather then just the forearm rotating

Are you suggesting that a golfer does anything active in the left arm? IMO the left forearm rotates due to forces inthe swing. It is the motion of the club that cause the left forearm to rotate. To require the rotation of the upper arm as well (in a passive sense) adds additonal mass and hence would slow down the motion.

my 2 cents...

 

[puttmad]

.....

The most important differences being...?

...

 

[Perfect Impact]

Well said yes yes yes. Look at Chi Chi Rodriguez, and Annika Sorrenstam--and Daly. They turn their hips a LOT and anyone who praises them for the "X factor" element has things mixed up, because they don't try to RESTRICT the backswing turn of hips: their forward swing NATURALLY USES UP SLACK as the lower body leads the upper body in the turn - and that is where the differential between the amount of turn of hips vs. shoulders shows up. It is simply a matter of slack between the two body parts which naturally goes to its limit in the sequence of forces working up from hips to shoulders to arms to hands to club.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Are you suggesting that a golfer does anything active in the left arm? IMO the left forearm rotates due to forces inthe swing. It is the motion of the club that cause the left forearm to rotate. To require the rotation of the upper arm as well (in a passive sense) adds additonal mass and hence would slow down the motion.

my 2 cents...

nice post and i much agree with. let 'force' do it for you and only 'add to it' when needed.

 

[Spike]

Wrist movement vs forearm movement?

Wrist can move vertical and horizontal without having the forearm move effectively.

Forearm movement always require the hand to move and the wrist tracks with it.

Can you rotate the wrist without moving the forearm?

Does the definition of the forearm include the elbow?

These are questions I have had for awhile.

Defintions that I have found...

rotation of the forearm

Pronation - A rotation of the forearm that moves the palm from an anterior-facing position to a posterior-facing position, or palm facing down. This is not medial rotation as this must be performed when the arm is half flexed. (See also Pronator quadratus and Pronator teres muscle.)

Supination - The opposite of pronation, the rotation of the forearm so that the palm faces anteriorly, or palm facing up. The hand is supine (facing anteriorly) in the anatomical position. (See also Supinator muscle.)

Kind of says the wrist does not rotate on its own it is the forearm/wrist/hand that is rotated

Thanks for that. And the references.

When I use the last three fingers to squeeze with, pushing against the grip (moving toward supination and horizontal hinging) does this ignite the supinator muscle and cause it to work? Or can it work on its own to move the hand into HH?

Sorry if this sounds stupid...just want to be clear.

Thanks

 

[Martee]

Spike you are asking the wrong person, I for a long time have struggled with the idea the wrist can rotate and not the forearm...

Sorry..

 

[shootin4par]

Are you suggesting that a golfer does anything active in the left arm? IMO the left forearm rotates due to forces inthe swing. It is the motion of the club that cause the left forearm to rotate. To require the rotation of the upper arm as well (in a passive sense) adds additonal mass and hence would slow down the motion.

my 2 cents...

if you noticed in my post I said "By allowing the whole left arm to be free I would imagine you would get more power when you blast off the chest, rather then just the forearm rotating" I was not saying to actively rotate the whole left arm, but allowing it to. SOmetimes in the mind all we have to do is understand what is supposed to happen and that can freee us up and allow it to happen. I have been given a lesson where I was told to rotate the left forearm, and that is exactly what I tried to do after that lesson. Now I understand that the whole arm should rotate, not just the forearm.