Books on Course Strategy and Management?

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Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

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dbl said:
Thanks, this is the chart of yours I saw:

Not really sure about the Mid1, 2, etc.

Richie3Jack Golf Blog: Golf Strategy Followup
Click to expand...

Here you go. 'DZ1' means the starting yardage and DZ2 means the end yardage of the 'Danger Zone.'

Obviously, one can have a shot longer than that. But, typically that doesn't happen.

Yards……DZ1……DZ2

7600……185……235

7500……175……225

7400……175……225

7300……175……225

7200……175….…225

7100……175….…225

7000……175….…225

6900……175……225

6800……175……225

6700……165……215

6600……165……215

6500……165……215

6400……165……215

6300……150……200

6200……150……200

6100……150……200

6000……150……200

5900……150……200

5800……140….…190

5700……140…….190

5600……140….…190

5500……140……190






3JACK
 
T

Tball88

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Great thread, Richie what's your thoughts on Driver vs. 3wood or other club off the tee if both clubs will keep you out of the danger zone. IE: a hole is 380 yards, Well hit Driver, I'm 100 out, well hit 3wood, I'm 140 out. Most people typically are not as accurate with the driver as with the three wood due to the loft, but is it worth the potential distance given up?
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

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There's an advantage to hitting driver over 3-wood in golf. I do NOT favor being conservative. You just have to be able to correctly gauge WHEN you should use 3-wood, which shouldn't be much.

Play for your AVERAGE swings. Meaning...gauge the odds of not leaving yourself in one of the following scenarios:

- water
- O.B.
- trees (having to hit under, over or thru them)
- *deep* rough
- fairway bunker

Too many golfers try to strategize for whether or not they will be okay if they take a poor swing. Poor swings are too unpredictable. And even worse, if you take a poor swing with a 3-wood and still wind up okay, you'll likely have a very difficult next shot. There was one hole at my old home course that was like that. Most golfers 5 handicap and below would take 3-wood off the tee because if you took a below average swing, typically you were okay. But for me, I would rip the driver because I would be almost always okay if I took an average swing. And I usually played that hole better than most people my handicap.

A good way to check this is to be able to determine the roll. The more the roll, particularly if it rolls towards those things that impede shots that I listed above...the *more* likely an average swing with the driver (for your standards) will find the trouble. The less roll, the less likely.

In the case I used with the hole where I hit driver while most hit 3-wood, that hole has a very elevated tee and thus, the ball almost plugs into the ground. So for me, an average swing isn't very likely to find trouble unless I hit it well and just over-drawed it for some reason or I was aimed well off target. Still, I just look at it like if I take a poor swing, then I 'deserve' to be in trouble anyway. I'd rather focus on my average swing and reap the rewards for those.

One more thing...I think golfers 'hug the corner' on tee shots wayyyy too much. Let's say the green is on the right and the designer has water down the right side. I see too many golfers trying to hug that water to have a shorter shot into the green. But what that does is it takes your 'average swing' and makes it more likely to find trouble. Most architects...with a hole designed like that, will leave quite a bit of room on the opposite side (in this case, the left side). I think golfers are better off aiming at that open left side and perhaps adding more distance to the driver (possibly by swing more upward on the attack angle). That should take trouble out of play. If you hit it near your target and add the distance, you won't have to worry so much about the distance you may have lost had you 'hugged the corner.' And if you hit it a little right of the target, you'll wind up just fine.

If you feel you can carry the corner with relative ease...go for it. But I think hugging the corner, on purpose, is not wise.






3JACK
 
J

Jared Willerson

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Ok...I have a hole at my club, 520 yard tight double dogleg par 5. Doglegs left with thick trees left and thickish trees and the cart path right off the tee . There is a pond around the at around 220 from the center of the green and the fairway is usually fairly hard so a driver will get to the pond, provided it curves appropriately, so a driver is out. There is no carrying a corner as the trees left start at the tee box and carrying the trees to the right is out because it is a long difficult carry to another holes' fairway and you would have to hit over another set of trees to get to the green.

I hit 3 or 4 wood off this tee, however a lot of times I can't draw it enough to get a clear shot on my approach which requires a fade. When I hit the appropriate shots it is an easy birdie, but trouble looms everywhere.

In short, what would course management experts advise on a hole such as this?
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

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Generally, par-5's are good holes to be aggressive on. There is a very, very strong correlation between going for the green in 2 on a par-5 and par-5 scoring average. The higher the percentage of go for its, the lower the scoring average *tends* to be on par-5's.

Obviously, if you have water that covers 60 yards and is just short of the green and requires a 260 yards to carry it and you only hit your 3-wood 235 carry...going for it would be a dumb move. So it's got to be a 'legitimate' go for it.

This 'laying up so I have a full shot' is often...for the birds.

Why?

Look at how the PGATour.com Web site's defition of how they define a 'go for it' on a par-5. It says that they define a 'go for it' when the golfer's 2nd shot winds up 30 yards from the front edge of the green (and if they hit it in the water).

So, you could have a hole where there's no water...have 280 to the pin, but hit it 235 and be considered to have a 'go for it' because you are within 30 yards of the green.

The point? The correlation between 'going for it' and par-5 scoring average is so strong that you're better off...on average...having that 45 yard shot into the pin than laying up, having that 'full swing into the flag' from 92 yards (I made up that distance).

I have a hole at one course I play where I'll have 230 yards into the green on my 2nd shot on the par-5 15th hole. There's water that hugs the left edge of the green. It's not 'wide open' right of the green, but you can hit it over there. If I have a decent lie...I always go for it. I can get my 20* hybrid there, so distances is not an issue. It just required an average swing for me. Which can still get me into the water if I over-draw it. But, in the end...the odds work in my favor.

Think about it. If I plunk it into the water...the drop is up by the green. Even if it's a drop that is 100 yards away...I can still make par and it's not impossible. And I probably won't do worse than a bogey (we don't want bogeys, but they are not the end of the world).

But, if I don't go in the water, I often have a shot at eagle...a good shot at birdie and just about eliminate the chance of making bogey. Again, if I played that shot 100 times, I'd make out better than if I didn't play that shot 100 times.

So...it's good to be aggressive on par-5's. I'd have to see the hole in question, but I look at it like I want to be aggressive on par-5's when I *can*, but I'm not going to be stupid. I'm not going to hit a shot that has a 20% success rate.

Also, I might experiment with finding a different way to hit the driver for that particular hole. Much like Tiger would hit the stinger back in the day. I may take my normal swing, but tee it extremely low, hit it low because the attack angle is downward...watch it not carry as far and spin more.

If that doesn't work and it's 3-wood off the tee...I just play for par. I don't have to birdie a par-5. Bubba Watson is probably the greatest par-5 player in the world and he only averages about -2 on the par-5's in a round of golf. Try to remember that you can't have a career round because of one hole, but you can have an awful round because of one bad hole.





3JACK
 
duckjr78

duckjr78

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Jared Willerson said:
Ok...I have a hole at my club, 520 yard tight double dogleg par 5. Doglegs left with thick trees left and thickish trees and the cart path right off the tee . There is a pond around the at around 220 from the center of the green and the fairway is usually fairly hard so a driver will get to the pond, provided it curves appropriately, so a driver is out. There is no carrying a corner as the trees left start at the tee box and carrying the trees to the right is out because it is a long difficult carry to another holes' fairway and you would have to hit over another set of trees to get to the green.

I hit 3 or 4 wood off this tee, however a lot of times I can't draw it enough to get a clear shot on my approach which requires a fade. When I hit the appropriate shots it is an easy birdie, but trouble looms everywhere.

In short, what would course management experts advise on a hole such as this?
Click to expand...

I am far from an expert, but as a golfer always trying to improve his score, I'll give this a shot. Anything but a perfect drive gives you a very difficult second shot and possibly adds a penalty stroke to your score. Never hit driver. Unless you are 3 down with 3 to play. Hit the club that allows you the best shot at a clear/easier shot at hitting it to your favorite layup distance.

I play a hole that is somewhat similar, without the pond. The farther I hit the driver, the more I have to fade the second shot (harder to do with a shorter club). The more left I hit the driver, the straighter the second can be, but I bring in the (strong) chance of being in the middle of a stand of trees. Luckily for me, it is the 18th hole on the course, so I base my strategy on where the match is at that point. If I was playing for strictly score every time or it was say, the 5th hole, I would play for an easy wedge in every single time, meaning hit the longest club I was sure I could hit in the fairway.

Sometimes, the architect designs a hole where you don't get a real choice. Maybe if you were left handed, or a low ball hitter, or a blue monkey, you could hit driver all day, but you aren't. Honesty mixed with ridiculous confidence is the number one trait of exceptional golfers. A 20 footer for birdie (after a wedge) ain't a bad thing just because the card says it's a par 5.
 
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willgolfer

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What adjustments do you make to increase your odds of hitting a tight fairway with the driver?

Do you grip down? Make a shorter backswing? Slow your swing tempo? Tee the ball lower?
 
grahler

grahler

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PGA tour stats don't always 'crossover' well to the average(high 70's to mid 90's) golfer. Driver is by far NOT the best scoring play for 'average' golfers on many holes.
Average golfers should learn their scoring irons before moving on to long irons IMO.
Hitting the green reliably when you are closer is more important(to make easy pars) than it is to practice long irons and say to yourself "if I can hit a 3 iron I don't need to practice a wedge..."
The key is recognizing when you are in a low percentage situation and aiming appropriately. If you are out of your comfort zone for the shot at hand then you are going to have to look two shots ahead and play position say to yourself where can I reliably leave this ball.
Strategy in golf is not cut and dried each shot must be judged according to the situation the art of scoring depends on how honest you are with yourself about your own capabilities/patterns.
Thats how course management is. Every player has to develop their own game.
Golf is an individual sport there is no magic course management or scoring formula.
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

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willgolfer said:
What adjustments do you make to increase your odds of hitting a tight fairway with the driver?

Do you grip down? Make a shorter backswing? Slow your swing tempo? Tee the ball lower?
Click to expand...

I generally try to tee it down a little and hit it lower. Attack angle steepens a bit...ball flies lower and spin is more so it won't roll as much.









3JACK
 
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