Brian, is the right elbow position in any way important in the swing?

[huestisc]

Thanks Birdie Man!

I thought this thread had rolled off into oblivion, so thanks to Birdie Man for bringing it back to life!

Kevin, you are absolutely correct about the reversing hips, it's something Brian has identified and has me working on. I saw him once in person 2.5 years ago for one hour...I had a classic hooker's set-up and what he figured to his eye was a 6* inside out path. He gave me the NHA treatment and taught me to swing left.

After that, I have had a couple of phone lessons with him, and in the first one he was happy that I had de-hooked myself and then pointed out the reverse hips. By the second phone lesson the hips were a bit better and he had me working on keeping the left shoulder down in transition, delaying the axis tilt until a bit later in the downswing.

Anyway, these were the first swings I have video'd in about 6 months, and I have not been able to practice much, I've maybe hit balls 5 or 6 times in the last 3 months....so they are a bit sloppy, but probably an accurate indication of the problems that creep back into my swing if I'm not careful.

I'm interested in the other stuff you and Twitch are pointing out. I never felt that I had active or quick hands, in the backswing or the downswing, but interested in hearing more of your thoughts on this.

 

[Kevin Shields]

If you stop the video when your hands are about halfway back put a line or a dot where your right hip is. Then (as twitch pointed out as well) the "hand controlled pivot" or fast hands take control and force the hips into that reversed position. Now put a dot on your hips at the top. The late reversing of them would indicate to me that the lower body lost some ground force by being overtaken by something upstairs. Finish your core turn and monitor the movement of the hips more. It could even be that you're starting your NHA fall to soon as well.

Looks good though, keep it up.

 

[huestisc]

Thanks Kevin, good feedback. I have a tendency to over turn my hips in the backswing, and in controlling that I may have gotten too "handsy" in the second part of the backswing, I think I know what you are getting at that I can continue the pivot by turning my core more, especially if my hips are under me.

Twitch, I gather that on the Face On view you think my hand path is too narrow, that I need more width? What about the DTL view? Although my hands don't "pop out", they do kind of go straight up, I would like a more inside path to about halfway back.

I think in the end, what I am working towards is a bit of a Soft Draw bs and a NHA downswing.

And back to the original question of the thread, I gather that neither of you think that the right elbow position on the downswing, in and of itself, is anything to worry about?

 

[Matt Bryda]

Question

Just curious, Does the width of his stance have a one to one relationship with the hands pulling in too much in the backswing?

 

[twitch127]

Twitch, I gather that on the Face On view you think my hand path is too narrow, that I need more width? What about the DTL view? Although my hands don't "pop out", they do kind of go straight up, I would like a more inside path to about halfway back.

Yes it is narrow and I don't agree that a more inside path is what you need. If you freeze frame the frame before the "top" of the backswing it looks pretty good, it just breaks down in the next frame as your hips reverse and hands pull in and get too deep behind you.
Do this drill - put a bit of thermaband under your left foot and place the other end in the palm of your right hand. Now stretch out the thermaband and see what hand path you make. It will probably feel upright and wide.

And back to the original question of the thread, I gather that neither of you think that the right elbow position on the downswing, in and of itself, is anything to worry about?
10-31-2009 01:19 PM

No, because if you fix the root cause of your problems the right elbow position and the way it loads will change anyway and Brian knows that and that is why he is telling you not to worry about it.

 

[ej20]

Thanks Kevin, good feedback. I have a tendency to over turn my hips in the backswing, and in controlling that I may have gotten too "handsy" in the second part of the backswing, I think I know what you are getting at that I can continue the pivot by turning my core more, especially if my hips are under me.

Twitch, I gather that on the Face On view you think my hand path is too narrow, that I need more width? What about the DTL view? Although my hands don't "pop out", they do kind of go straight up, I would like a more inside path to about halfway back.

I think in the end, what I am working towards is a bit of a Soft Draw bs and a NHA downswing.

And back to the original question of the thread, I gather that neither of you think that the right elbow position on the downswing, in and of itself, is anything to worry about?

I know what you mean about the right elbow.It's not an imperative to play good golf but I would say if you want to get to the next level in ballstriking,it is.

In my opinion it is related to the fact your hands come down too soon before the pivot.Probably an after effect of the horrible TGM hands controlled pivot concept of aiming the hands to an aiming point and you should pivot like Hunter Mahan.

That is the one thing that jumps out at me when I look at your swing and tour pros....their pivots have a microsecond head start before the hands come down...a very important microsecond.

 

[twitch127]

In my opinion it is related to the fact your hands come down too soon before the pivot.Probably an after effect of the horrible TGM hands controlled pivot concept of aiming the hands to an aiming point and you should pivot like Hunter Mahan.

What are you talking about? You obviously don't understand what a hand controlled pivot is or what aiming point is. His swing is out of sequence it has nothing to do with the two concepts you have mentioned, but your entitled to your opinion but it's off the mark. read the thread again and you'll see why his hands are working first.

 

[ej20]

What are you talking about? You obviously don't understand what a hand controlled pivot is or what aiming point is. His swing is out of sequence it has nothing to do with the two concepts you have mentioned, but your entitled to your opinion but it's off the mark. read the thread again and you'll see why his hands are working first.

That's your opinion also.If you ask 10 TGMers their idea of hands controlled pivot or aiming point,you will probably get 10 diferent interpretations.

The OP correctly pointed out that the right elbow on the transition is out of position pointed too much behind compared to most pros.That's a fact.Is it imperative to play good golf?No.Tim Clark does it but he is the minority.

The OP is steep in transition.Getting the right elbow pointed more down earlier will shallow out the transition like most good players do.

However,I have an open mind.I will be interested to follow if "educating his hands" to follow the correct path will fix it.

 

[twitch127]

That's your opinion also.If you ask 10 TGMers their idea of hands controlled pivot or aiming point,you will probably get 10 diferent interpretations.

They wouldn't be all that different if they know what Kelley was trying to say. I guarantee that Brian, Mike Jacobs and Steve Khatib will all have the same interpretation of the concepts you mentioned because they know their stuff. The ones that don't normally hide behind the book and say it's an interpretation issue.. It's not!

The OP correctly pointed out that the right elbow on the transition is out of position pointed too much behind compared to most pros.That's a fact.Is it imperative to play good golf?No.Tim Clark does it but he is the minority.

I'll tell you exactly why that is happening if you really want to know. His right elbow is pointed too much behind him because he has very little right forearm fanning in the backswing and he loads his right elbow like a hitter (at right angles to the primary lever assembly) There is nothing wrong with that but your going to straighten the lever assembly a lot sooner in the downswing and therefore be very sweepy in your release (as a rule). If you want to have the right elbow pointing more down and in front of you then you had better have some right forearm rotation and load the right elbow at right angles to the secondary lever assembly. This is allow a lot more force along the shaft (pulling the shaft like a heavy rope) - therefore creating a deeper more snappy relase (as a rule).
Now that you know this would you really go and tell the student all that or would you just fix him and let the elbow position fix itself

The OP is steep in transition.Getting the right elbow pointed more down earlier will shallow out the transition like most good players do.

Getting him to do that is a waste of time if you don't change the way he is assembling and loading the power package. A lot of good players load the right arm in a hitters formation - especially the bigger barrel chested guys ie Palmer, Nicklaus, Couples but more load it the other way

 

[ej20]

They wouldn't be all that different if they know what Kelley was trying to say. I guarantee that Brian, Mike Jacobs and Steve Khatib will all have the same interpretation of the concepts you mentioned because they know their stuff. The ones that don't normally hide behind the book and say it's an interpretation issue.. It's not!


I'll tell you exactly why that is happening if you really want to know. His right elbow is pointed too much behind him because he has very little right forearm fanning in the backswing and he loads his right elbow like a hitter (at right angles to the primary lever assembly) There is nothing wrong with that but your going to straighten the lever assembly a lot sooner in the downswing and therefore be very sweepy in your release (as a rule). If you want to have the right elbow pointing more down and in front of you then you had better have some right forearm rotation and load the right elbow at right angles to the secondary lever assembly. This is allow a lot more force along the shaft (pulling the shaft like a heavy rope) - therefore creating a deeper more snappy relase (as a rule).
Now that you know this would you really go and tell the student all that or would you just fix him and let the elbow position fix itself



Getting him to do that is a waste of time if you don't change the way he is assembling and loading the power package. A lot of good players load the right arm in a hitters formation - especially the bigger barrel chested guys ie Palmer, Nicklaus, Couples but more load it the other way

Twitch,a lot of TGM concepts have been blown to bits on this and other forums by very clever people.STLOC is a myth,impossible to horizontal hinge in a real golf swing,no such thing as pure hitting or swinging and I'm sure I have missed a few.I don't really like to debate with a TGMer because I usually have to play by their rules.They don't discuss anything outside of the book and assume everything in the book is law and not debatable.I post more now on this forum because Brian is no longer hard core TGM.

The OP's right elbow position is not the only fault.I wasn't going to elaborate because i am not his instructor.There is a more serious problem of an OTT pivot action which contributes to it.His right shoulder lifts rather than drop on the transition which keeps the right elbow too high as well as pointed behind.I am sure someone will point out that he is not OTT,but it is perfectly possible to loop the club inside with your hands while having an OTT pivot action which in my opinion is what the OP is doing.Perhaps his hands need to be better educated to get the proper pivot?

However I am sure you will say that will also be fixed with right arm rotation and proper assembly and loading of the power package.

 

[golfspike]

They wouldn't be all that different if they know what Kelley was trying to say. I guarantee that Brian, Mike Jacobs and Steve Khatib will all have the same interpretation of the concepts you mentioned because they know their stuff. The ones that don't normally hide behind the book and say it's an interpretation issue.. It's not!


I'll tell you exactly why that is happening if you really want to know. His right elbow is pointed too much behind him because he has very little right forearm fanning in the backswing and he loads his right elbow like a hitter (at right angles to the primary lever assembly) There is nothing wrong with that but your going to straighten the lever assembly a lot sooner in the downswing and therefore be very sweepy in your release (as a rule). If you want to have the right elbow pointing more down and in front of you then you had better have some right forearm rotation and load the right elbow at right angles to the secondary lever assembly. This is allow a lot more force along the shaft (pulling the shaft like a heavy rope) - therefore creating a deeper more snappy relase (as a rule).
Now that you know this would you really go and tell the student all that or would you just fix him and let the elbow position fix itself



Getting him to do that is a waste of time if you don't change the way he is assembling and loading the power package. A lot of good players load the right arm in a hitters formation - especially the bigger barrel chested guys ie Palmer, Nicklaus, Couples but more load it the other way

Twitch can you put up pics showing the right angle of the elbow to the primary lever assembly and secondary lever assembly demonstrating the 90 degrees precisely

 

[Brian Manzella]

From the bottom of my heart,

You guys are nuts with all this stuff that DOES NOT MATTER!!!

 

[twitch127]

Golfspike,

I'm not going to that length but check out the two links below. Two of the best golfers ever to pick up a club and they couldn't load the club more differently. Pause the top and see the different loading characteristics of the right arm ie primary lever and secondary lever

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmTPvZLAdUI&feature=related[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d18QidQxPo&feature=related[/media]

BTW : It doesn't get much better than Sammy

From the bottom of my heart,

AM You guys are nuts with all this stuff that DOES NOT MATTER!!!
Today 10:22

Just highlighting the different ways to move and load the club. Does the ball know or care, no, but the player has choices no?

Isn't that what your recent video on flying right elbow is about?

 

[golfspike]

Golfspike,

I'm not going to that length but check out the two links below. Two of the best golfers ever to pick up a club and they couldn't load the club more differently. Pause the top and see the different loading characteristics of the right arm ie primary lever and secondary lever

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmTPvZLAdUI&feature=related[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d18QidQxPo&feature=related[/media]

BTW : It doesn't get much better than Sammy



Just highlighting the different ways to move and load the club. Does the ball know or care, no, but the player has choices no?

Isn't that what your recent video on flying right elbow is about?

Thanks Twitch , I understand what you mean , but would like a more detailed with precise 90 deg measurement identifying each

 

[jonnygrouville]

From the bottom of my heart,

You guys are nuts with all this stuff that DOES NOT MATTER!!!

That caught me by surprise and made me spit tea at my computer.

 

[huestisc]

From the bottom of my heart,

You guys are nuts with all this stuff that DOES NOT MATTER!!!

Gotta agree with Brian here, I think instead of worrying about fanning, rotating left arm flying wedge, etc I really just need to be more diligent about my hip movement, get my hips underneath me and make sure they don't reverse and the other stuff will take care of itself.

And I really don't see over the top pivot action at all....my problem if anything is the opposite, under plane and left shoulder coming up too soon.

Really for the past 6 months or so I haven' worried at all about what my swing looks like, just working on various feels to get my path less right.