Brian Manzella (New) Instruction Pricing
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Brian Manzella
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No such thing as a bad student, only bad teacher
—The Karate Kid
Makes sense to me.
Some lessons are easier than others, but, if you are REALLY GOOD at teaching ANY subject, you can get it done.
—The Karate Kid
Makes sense to me.
Some lessons are easier than others, but, if you are REALLY GOOD at teaching ANY subject, you can get it done.
Steve Khatib
Super Moderator
I LOVE IT!
Best Post ever!!!!!!!!
Personally I really hate those line drawers with a passion there are so many clueless pga pros that draw lines and teach position golf in Australia.
Students dont care about those damn lines and comparing them to Appleby when there body type is so different anatomically.
Pros use the computer to waste time due to their lack a of ciriculum. Lady Beginners being shown their swings on computer and all they see is how fat they are and they get to hit 12 balls with no better compression in 1 hour than before. I guess they at least get a print out of their swing with lines to take home with them!:
Best Post ever!!!!!!!!
Personally I really hate those line drawers with a passion there are so many clueless pga pros that draw lines and teach position golf in Australia.
Students dont care about those damn lines and comparing them to Appleby when there body type is so different anatomically.
Pros use the computer to waste time due to their lack a of ciriculum. Lady Beginners being shown their swings on computer and all they see is how fat they are and they get to hit 12 balls with no better compression in 1 hour than before. I guess they at least get a print out of their swing with lines to take home with them!:
Steve Khatib
Super Moderator
Best Post ever Hall of fame!
Brian Manzella said:
Steve Khatib
Super Moderator
Brian Manzella said:
Based on this Leadbetter, Ballard, Haney and co. lose $$$ only in the following sections:
2.Have a clue minus $15
3.PGA Professional minus $40
4. Extra letters GSEB minus $10
The totals up to them being able to charge $735 out of a possible $800per hour
Not a bad fee rate structure for teaching throwaway, quitting, steering and illusions.
metallion
New
By doing that you accomplished nothing else than punishment. If you had been interested in building value; you should have refunded the bad attitude guy & tell him that you are sorry you were unable to transfer any value to him.Perfect Impact said:
If you did it right, he'd take the refund, go home and think it over. And in time beg for another lesson. You'd default to refuse that second lesson, but do it IF his new attitude indicated you could transfer value to him.
Perfect Impact
New
the context makes the difference
My pupils come from all over the world: I do not have locals: our retirement community has two realities: not a soul here really takes lessons (except the $6/hr beginner Adult Recreation Department group classes), and no one here would think of paying $40 an hour. I did have a gentleman who came once every two weeks for 1/2 hour for $25, but his multimillionaire wife with passive income of $8000 a week put the kibosh on his spending that much for silly old GOLF lessons. This is a true story!
So people do not fly back to Florida from CA or Puerto Rico or Spain or Amsterdam or Calgary to "try again."
One does the best for his pupils that the circumstances allow for. I have no knowledge of good faith or ability to learn prior to them showing up here!
metallion said:
My pupils come from all over the world: I do not have locals: our retirement community has two realities: not a soul here really takes lessons (except the $6/hr beginner Adult Recreation Department group classes), and no one here would think of paying $40 an hour. I did have a gentleman who came once every two weeks for 1/2 hour for $25, but his multimillionaire wife with passive income of $8000 a week put the kibosh on his spending that much for silly old GOLF lessons. This is a true story!
So people do not fly back to Florida from CA or Puerto Rico or Spain or Amsterdam or Calgary to "try again."
One does the best for his pupils that the circumstances allow for. I have no knowledge of good faith or ability to learn prior to them showing up here!
I have to agree with Perfect Impact on this one. There needs to be a mutual "meeting of the minds" for a successful learning outcome to occur. The responsibility goes both ways. The teacher needs to have the correct knowledge and the ability to communicate it clearly in a manner that the student can understand. And the patience to keep trying different ways to communicate the message until the student "gets it". That is real learning. The student must meet the teacher or lesson environment with an open, inquiring mind and willing to make the changes that the teacher is recommending. The student has to really want to learn. If both criteria are met - teacher and student - the student will learn.
For the student to take that "learning" to the level of physical skill acquistiion takes intelligent practice - and often a lot of it. If the student is unwilling to do the practice - in spite of the teachers advice to do so - then the student will fail to acquire real skill. No teacher or personal trainer can MAKE anyone do anything. You have to want it and then put forth the effort.
Years ago, I was at a party with the top Yoga teacher in Portland. She has many studios and is extremely successful at her profession. This very same discussion came up, all of her novice Yoga instructors had this kind of New Age belief that the burden of resposibility was 100% on the teachers shoulders. We both disagreed strongly - from long experience. And Brian's reference to The Karate Kid movie - probably the worst example of Asian martial arts teaching/learning philosophy that you could possibly imagine - has it exactly backwards. In that tradition, which I have been a part of for over 40 years, the idea is that the student must rise to the level of the teacher and prove to the teacher that he is truly motivated to learn from the teacher. There are plenty of bad students in the martial arts tradition but only a few good teachers. Western New Age naivete should never be confused with that tradition - although Hollywood loves to do so!
Jim Waldron
For the student to take that "learning" to the level of physical skill acquistiion takes intelligent practice - and often a lot of it. If the student is unwilling to do the practice - in spite of the teachers advice to do so - then the student will fail to acquire real skill. No teacher or personal trainer can MAKE anyone do anything. You have to want it and then put forth the effort.
Years ago, I was at a party with the top Yoga teacher in Portland. She has many studios and is extremely successful at her profession. This very same discussion came up, all of her novice Yoga instructors had this kind of New Age belief that the burden of resposibility was 100% on the teachers shoulders. We both disagreed strongly - from long experience. And Brian's reference to The Karate Kid movie - probably the worst example of Asian martial arts teaching/learning philosophy that you could possibly imagine - has it exactly backwards. In that tradition, which I have been a part of for over 40 years, the idea is that the student must rise to the level of the teacher and prove to the teacher that he is truly motivated to learn from the teacher. There are plenty of bad students in the martial arts tradition but only a few good teachers. Western New Age naivete should never be confused with that tradition - although Hollywood loves to do so!
Jim Waldron
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
It's pretty obvious that Metallion has never worked in the customer service industry which is kinda what Golf Teaching is all about for the MAJORITY of students. No matter how good the service is you'll never please everyone.
As a teacher you should be able to help everyone to some extent but don't count on everyone practicing or coming back every week no matter how "good" or how much "value" you create in them. A lot of people just grab what they wanted clarification on and don't come back. Or you fix them so good they don't need to come back.
Thats why the quicker you get them results in the first lesson the more often they will come back because they know you can get r' done!
As a teacher you should be able to help everyone to some extent but don't count on everyone practicing or coming back every week no matter how "good" or how much "value" you create in them. A lot of people just grab what they wanted clarification on and don't come back. Or you fix them so good they don't need to come back.
Thats why the quicker you get them results in the first lesson the more often they will come back because they know you can get r' done!
Brian Manzella
Administrator
The exact truth.
25 YEARS of trying to be the best teacher...
If you know what you are teaching and you can teach—really teach—you can help 95% of all students if you TRY REALLY HARD.
What about the other 5%?
You can STILL upgrade them some, but, there are those who—like Jim and George are saying—just don't try a lick, won't listen, are there to GIVE the lesson, wish they were ANYwhere else, or are there JUST TO &%^$ you up, etc.
What to do?
Give them you 100% best effort and hope they either get a clue or never come back.
(This all goes for forum members as well)
25 YEARS of trying to be the best teacher...
If you know what you are teaching and you can teach—really teach—you can help 95% of all students if you TRY REALLY HARD.
What about the other 5%?
You can STILL upgrade them some, but, there are those who—like Jim and George are saying—just don't try a lick, won't listen, are there to GIVE the lesson, wish they were ANYwhere else, or are there JUST TO &%^$ you up, etc.
What to do?
Give them you 100% best effort and hope they either get a clue or never come back.
(This all goes for forum members as well)
Brian, I couldn't agree more. You do your best and if they are truly sincere about improving and learning, you will help them to some degree, even the ones who are "athletically challenged". The stubborn ones who think that they know as much or even more than the teacher - thankfully very rare occurence - nothing you can do for those folks.
Jim Waldron
Jim Waldron
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Florida?
Brian,
Sorry if I came across the wrong way with the Manziposium comment. I am interested though in your thoughts on a well organised gathering of minds in Florida around summit time.
Teaching teachers/ a teaching teach off(if you can find a worthy and willing opponent)/an advanced school of sorts/your own creation!
Regards,
Damon
Brian,
Sorry if I came across the wrong way with the Manziposium comment. I am interested though in your thoughts on a well organised gathering of minds in Florida around summit time.
Teaching teachers/ a teaching teach off(if you can find a worthy and willing opponent)/an advanced school of sorts/your own creation!
Regards,
Damon
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Manziposium 2006
The Golfing Machine Summit
Manziposium
PGA Teaching Summit
What a week!
I need to find a place to do it, Martino would never allow it on his grounds.
The TGM Summit is two days and the PGA Summit is two days later, with the PLAY GOLF AMERICA day and the 'sponsor" day in between.
I will teach at the Play Golf America day, and maybe tape the whole thing. MANZELLA FIXES THEM ALL or something like that.
The 'zimposium' needs to be on sponsor day or Play Golf day, but, the how is tough.
The Golfing Machine Summit
Manziposium
PGA Teaching Summit
What a week!
I need to find a place to do it, Martino would never allow it on his grounds.
The TGM Summit is two days and the PGA Summit is two days later, with the PLAY GOLF AMERICA day and the 'sponsor" day in between.
I will teach at the Play Golf America day, and maybe tape the whole thing. MANZELLA FIXES THEM ALL or something like that.
The 'zimposium' needs to be on sponsor day or Play Golf day, but, the how is tough.
I am still amazed at how many golf students approach lessons. Success or Failure of the lessons ultimately lies with the student. This assumes that the instructor is not a tree stump, which there are those, but by it seems in my small sampling that the students seem to be in control of their own success.
Too many students IMO approach lesson like buying a golf book, you read it, try a few things and expect to see results that are long lasting with not much more effort than it takes to turn the pages. And then there are those who love the tip of the month, they can quote you the last 24 monthly tips, and they tried all of them and they still havent improved, except for that short day or two when they first started.
IMO, if students were more demanding, instruction would improve or there would be more unemployed instructors.
I don't know if you can call some instructors overpriced or is it some instructors are underpriced. But for sure you can say students seem to have difficulty in recognizing value and more often than not are more interested in the hype.
Too many students IMO approach lesson like buying a golf book, you read it, try a few things and expect to see results that are long lasting with not much more effort than it takes to turn the pages. And then there are those who love the tip of the month, they can quote you the last 24 monthly tips, and they tried all of them and they still havent improved, except for that short day or two when they first started.
IMO, if students were more demanding, instruction would improve or there would be more unemployed instructors.
I don't know if you can call some instructors overpriced or is it some instructors are underpriced. But for sure you can say students seem to have difficulty in recognizing value and more often than not are more interested in the hype.
Steve Khatib
Super Moderator
Brian, count me in I'll be at all three summits with the PGA SUMMIT the biggest 'dog and pony show' of them all and the other two will teach the truth based on varied ways to apply the three imperitives via the three essentials through the three stations and the twelve sections. It's all so logical and the Pga summit just spins propoganda and PR stunts for their blue eyed boy well groomed teachers. Lets face it Suzy Whalley and Laird Small presentations in 2004 were a circus act, but they were all PGA groomed presenters and Carol Mann should be taken off the summit commitee for her anti TGM/ Manzella/Doyle fear based grip fixing shallow teaching.
teaching. Brian Manzella said:
metallion
New
On "both-ways responsibility"
If "both-ways responsibility" exists. No problem. If not we need to establish it. If that is not possible we are not teaching at all.
It can be done. Not in every case. But it can be done.
As an example there is a passage in "Zen Golf" by Joseph Parent where a buddhist monk is about to give a lesson to someone. Mr Someone starts off by telling the monk that he's read every single book, do some namedropping re other teachers/monks he's met, that there's this and that and that he is looking for a specific advice on how to approach a certain concept that he has identified as his problem. The monk starts to pour Mr Someone tea. When the cup is full the tea starts flooding the table and swamping the carpet. The monk continues to pour. Then Mr Someone stops talking and says:
- Hey, the cup is already full.
The monk says:
- Just as this cup is full you have so many preconceptions about this session that it will be impossible to teach you anything,
"Empty your cup"
The monk illustrated was what happening. He made the student get it. Just as a great techer will. Use a trick or a story (but forget about name-droppning or brand names). As long as the message gets through. Why not demonstrate that you are able to do it. (As I recall Brian once used be able to perform what he teaches as a criteria for a good teacher. Great. Works for me. It is one of several possible options to make the student listen).
This is not a Hollywood story, and it is fair to say that a master teacher will look for signs of a student having already decided what he need to learn and thus refuse any other information being transferred to him.
This is also my personal criteria for determining a good teacher from an average one. The good teacher will quickly make me prepared to forget about my particular ideas on the given subject and make me listen to what he thinks is best for me. Or if you like: The area where the teacher thinks he'd be able to deliver the most value during the time frame available. He'll start "delivering tea" only when my cup is empty, cleaned, polished and shining.
The average teacher will listen intently to what I perceive as being my problem and "try to help" fixing what I already knew needed to be fixed. And pour his tea in a dirty cup.
The potential for transferring value is obvious.
To summarize the master teacher will make sure that the student is in learning mode. He can use any means to do that, as long as the student starts listening. If the teacher is not able to do that he is not yet a master or has ended up with the 1-5% of the population of students that will effectively waste time for both parties.
So what would the master do when the "impossible case" show up?
An alternative would be:
- Well you've paid me do teach you something I do not deliver. I am sorry but you came to the wrong place. You are effectively trying to buy drugs at the police station.
A refund would be the ultimare, but since bills need to be payed it is not an option in most cases. But for every no-teach & no-refund session the master teacher status will be postponed.
bpgs1 said:
If "both-ways responsibility" exists. No problem. If not we need to establish it. If that is not possible we are not teaching at all.
It can be done. Not in every case. But it can be done.
As an example there is a passage in "Zen Golf" by Joseph Parent where a buddhist monk is about to give a lesson to someone. Mr Someone starts off by telling the monk that he's read every single book, do some namedropping re other teachers/monks he's met, that there's this and that and that he is looking for a specific advice on how to approach a certain concept that he has identified as his problem. The monk starts to pour Mr Someone tea. When the cup is full the tea starts flooding the table and swamping the carpet. The monk continues to pour. Then Mr Someone stops talking and says:
- Hey, the cup is already full.
The monk says:
- Just as this cup is full you have so many preconceptions about this session that it will be impossible to teach you anything,
"Empty your cup"
The monk illustrated was what happening. He made the student get it. Just as a great techer will. Use a trick or a story (but forget about name-droppning or brand names). As long as the message gets through. Why not demonstrate that you are able to do it. (As I recall Brian once used be able to perform what he teaches as a criteria for a good teacher. Great. Works for me. It is one of several possible options to make the student listen).
This is not a Hollywood story, and it is fair to say that a master teacher will look for signs of a student having already decided what he need to learn and thus refuse any other information being transferred to him.
This is also my personal criteria for determining a good teacher from an average one. The good teacher will quickly make me prepared to forget about my particular ideas on the given subject and make me listen to what he thinks is best for me. Or if you like: The area where the teacher thinks he'd be able to deliver the most value during the time frame available. He'll start "delivering tea" only when my cup is empty, cleaned, polished and shining.
The average teacher will listen intently to what I perceive as being my problem and "try to help" fixing what I already knew needed to be fixed. And pour his tea in a dirty cup.
The potential for transferring value is obvious.
To summarize the master teacher will make sure that the student is in learning mode. He can use any means to do that, as long as the student starts listening. If the teacher is not able to do that he is not yet a master or has ended up with the 1-5% of the population of students that will effectively waste time for both parties.
So what would the master do when the "impossible case" show up?
An alternative would be:
- Well you've paid me do teach you something I do not deliver. I am sorry but you came to the wrong place. You are effectively trying to buy drugs at the police station.
A refund would be the ultimare, but since bills need to be payed it is not an option in most cases. But for every no-teach & no-refund session the master teacher status will be postponed.
Perfect Impact
New
"This is not a Hollywood story, and it is fair to say that a master teacher will look for signs of a student having already decided what he need to learn and thus refuse any other information being transferred to him."
That's a Gem! It is what I poorly stated as an attitude problem...
That's a Gem! It is what I poorly stated as an attitude problem...
One thing I found out early on in my teaching golf days is that each and every student has his or her own learning curve and it was my job to recognize that fact and stick with him through thick and thin. It could take weeks or months for a student to move through the learning process, but as long as the student is willing to do his part by making an honest attempt to learn, I feel it is my duty to do the same.
metallion
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