Bubba Watson and Lee Trevino and wedges

[niblick1]

Anyone watch the cheesy ING shotmaker thing on tonight? Not surprisingly, I found Trevino, Bubba Watson and Paula Creamer very entertaining. Suzann Petterson, not so.

I liked it when Bubba quipped he hadn't seen the line on a Lee T. putt because he didn't want to watch Trevino's putting stroke, and Lee said something like "you might want to memorize that stroke since it won 6 majors."

Creamer was weak on wedge distances and Petterson was pathetic on a teed up basic bunker shot (I've noticed there are some very good LPGA players who are really weak sand players, I find that surprising).

Anyway. Bubba Watson hits all his shots with that wedding ring up finish. He hits his 56 degree wedge for EASY swing 120 yard shots. I'm sure his swing speed is high, but is he just using a tremendous amount of lean on every shot? Is that why he moves everything with big draws and cuts? I thought Trevino looked like with a few days warm-up he'd kick Bubba's butt on wedge shots (even if Bubba did hit some excellent shots).

Lee T, by the way, really uses the gather-up-the-marbles finish on most types of wedge shots.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Bubba has always been big on "moving the iron shots a lot." Also he has a relatively high swingspeed so all his irons can and should go fairly far.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I tivo'd Creamers swing. Wow, she must have talent to play that way. She gets to impact sometimes before her left foot, tons of flip. Thats why her head chases down the line like that. That phoney fade finish is so far after the flip.
Bubba always has a ton of roll, but as we know, that post impact hinge action doesnt matter. Its all prepped before impact just like the girls with the phony fade finish. Freeze frame impact and his lead wrist is flat as hell. The roll is way past the hit.
Trevino was fun to watch and he hasnt played seriously for a while.
Why didn't they at least hit one shot past 120 yds? Boring.

 

[pieman]

pretty boring as well. i think lee was a bit ticked at that putting comment bubba made. petterson didn't seem to contribute much.

 

[niblick1]

I tivo'd Creamers swing. Wow, she must have talent to play that way. She gets to impact sometimes before her left foot, tons of flip. Thats why her head chases down the line like that. That phoney fade finish is so far after the flip.
Bubba always has a ton of roll, but as we know, that post impact hinge action doesnt matter. Its all prepped before impact just like the girls with the phony fade finish. Freeze frame impact and his lead wrist is flat as hell. The roll is way past the hit.
Trevino was fun to watch and he hasnt played seriously for a while.
Why didn't they at least hit one shot past 120 yds? Boring.

Creamer does look flippy, doesn't she? She hits the ball a reasonable distance and hits a ton of fairways with the driver, and putts well. Watching her hit wedges makes you realize she still has plenty of room for improvement. Trevino is always really fun to watch. And I agree, longest shot was 120 yards? Well, I guess it's hard to some up with a challenge at long distance where Bubba Watson doesn't have an enormous advantage. Still I wanted to see him blast a few 350 yards.

 

[thefuture37]

does creamer flip more than ben curtis?

 

[niblick1]

does creamer flip more than ben curtis?

And does it even matter? The ball doesn't know what happens to her wrist after it leaves the face or where her wrist is when the ball is one the face, so if she controls the flip, it doesn't matter, right, cause she's just adding loft and changing the d-plane?

The question I wonder is how Brian would fix the guy I play with who is a great driver of the ball for his handicap level and horrific with his wedges because of a poorly-timed flip (you don't want to stand behind the green when he is hitting wedges). What's the root cause of a flip that needs to be fixed, how much of that underlying cause needs to be fixed, and how much is just "show biz" after the ball leaves the clubface? And would it change how he drives the ball?

 

[self-mastery]

does creamer flip more than ben curtis?

MEH

She's listed as #4 on on the Rolex WWGR.

She's listed as # 2 on the money list.

She's way better than the other two former over hyped teen stars. Nike has to be thinking #$% we sponsored Michelle Wie. We hope that we can get enough S. Koreans to buy our junk.

Her swing apparently works for her.


The next evolution in golf instruction will come from neuroscientists, not from physicists!!!

 

[Kevin Shields]

And does it even matter? The ball doesn't know what happens to her wrist after it leaves the face or where her wrist is when the ball is one the face, so if she controls the flip, it doesn't matter, right, cause she's just adding loft and changing the d-plane?

The question I wonder is how Brian would fix the guy I play with who is a great driver of the ball for his handicap level and horrific with his wedges because of a poorly-timed flip (you don't want to stand behind the green when he is hitting wedges). What's the root cause of a flip that needs to be fixed, how much of that underlying cause needs to be fixed, and how much is just "show biz" after the ball leaves the clubface? And would it change how he drives the ball?

It sure looked like the ball knew she flipped it when she almost took out a camera crew long and left of the green twice from 120 yds. Look, some people succed despite their swings for other reasons. She might be the best putter on the womens tour (kinda like the worlds tallest midget)

 

[kc8kir]

Any chance someone could put their TIVO capture up on Youtube? I'd really love to see this.

You are probably right. Lee Trevino would kick all of them given a few days to warm up. He was a no-flip wedge player who generated rediculous spin. When he came on tour, people couldn't believe how many of hit shots just absolutely stopped dead, with all clubs, on the greens. He wasn't the longest player, but his accuracy was insane. His swing was designed to do two things... score... and hustle.

I have started experimenting with a closed-open face action and open stance like Lee and the results with wedges are very encouraging. Provided you turn through the shot, there is no way to flip. You have to hit down into the ball hands leading the shot. Kinda cool really. It's almost like Lee figured out how to anatomically guarantee a flat left wrist at impact.

He's a genius.

 

[CarlSpackler]

Any chance someone could put their TIVO capture up on Youtube? I'd really love to see this.

You are probably right. Lee Trevino would kick all of them given a few days to warm up. He was a no-flip wedge player who generated rediculous spin. When he came on tour, people couldn't believe how many of hit shots just absolutely stopped dead, with all clubs, on the greens. He wasn't the longest player, but his accuracy was insane. His swing was designed to do two things... score... and hustle.

I have started experimenting with a closed-open face action and open stance like Lee and the results with wedges are very encouraging. Provided you turn through the shot, there is no way to flip. You have to hit down into the ball hands leading the shot. Kinda cool really. It's almost like Lee figured out how to anatomically guarantee a flat left wrist at impact.

He's a genius.

Kind of like he used his body to move the clubface through impact: a "macroscopic" approach to hitting the ball.

 

[niblick1]

It sure looked like the ball knew she flipped it when she almost took out a camera crew long and left of the green twice from 120 yds. Look, some people succed despite their swings for other reasons. She might be the best putter on the womens tour (kinda like the worlds tallest midget)

Yeah, she hasn't got that flip quite down on her wedges, does she? I guess that is the test. If you time it right with all the clubs then I guess it doesn't matter. You'd think she'd have someone help her figure out the wedge issue - she has a lot of room for quick improvement, and she's already a top LPGA player

The guy I play with who either hits the ball over or short of 1/4 of the greens he hits into with a wedge is the extreme example of flipping issues. At least Paula doesn't skull them.

 

[joeparr]

Niblick, are you sure you were looking at suzann petterson.? She sure entertained me...

 

[self-mastery]

Niblick, are you sure you were looking at suzann petterson.? She sure entertained me...

I like her athletic figure.

 

[niblick1]

I like her athletic figure.

Yeah, I do understand that. And one of the few LPGA players who looks like she could be competing in an Olympic sport.

Having watched quite a few LPGA events in the past couple years, I just find her painful. It's the sour disposition and her chewing out of her caddy when she plays badly.

 

[Brian Manzella]

No Flip Wedges

It seems to me, that EVERYONE needs to learn to hit a no-flip wedge at some point in their development.

In the process on learning to, there is an inevitable influence on the way the hands and club move through the ball on full shots.

Sometimes it causes a problem, sometime it is an upgrade.

But it is a sort of rite-of-passage to "full development."

 

[tbarbertab]

MEH

She's listed as #4 on on the Rolex WWGR.

She's listed as # 2 on the money list.

She's way better than the other two former over hyped teen stars. Nike has to be thinking #$% we sponsored Michelle Wie. We hope that we can get enough S. Koreans to buy our junk.

Her swing apparently works for her.


The next evolution in golf instruction will come from neuroscientists, not from physicists!!!

I didn't see the show, but I must say that Paula is typically a very good iron player, flip or no flip. Her biggest limitation is length off the tee.

 

[cmartingolf]

It seems to me, that EVERYONE needs to learn to hit a no-flip wedge at some point in their development.

In the process on learning to, there is an inevitable influence on the way the hands and club move through the ball on full shots.

Sometimes it causes a problem, sometime it is an upgrade.

But it is a sort of rite-of-passage to "full development."

I'm amazed how people can score as well as they do while flipping. You don't see it much on the men's Tour these days... especially with any short iron shots.

I didn't see the show, but I must say that Paula is typically a very good iron player, flip or no flip. Her biggest limitation is length off the tee.

For a taller young gal, she is a short hitter. There is definitely leakage in there. She reminds me of Gulbis. They both chase the flip down the fairway. Creamer gets it done though. Four wins in '08....

77 Ashli Bunch 246.6 44
78 Jimin Kang 246.5 96
T79 Paula Creamer 246.3 99
T79 Dina Ammaccapane 246.3 56
T79 Hee-Won Han 246.3 100

T121 Soo-Yun Kang 240.8 70
T121 Amy Hung 240.8 57
T123 Natalie Gulbis 240.7 65
T123 Silvia Cavalleri 240.7 57
125 Meg Mallon 240.4 43

1 Lorena Ochoa 269.3 83
2 Sophie Gustafson 268.8 75
3 Brittany Lincicome 268.5 60
4 Jee Young Lee 267.8 97
5 Becky Lucidi 267.7 53

 

[twitch127]

I'm amazed how people can score as well as they do while flipping. You don't see it much on the men's Tour these days... especially with any short iron shots.

I know,...... a ton of them do it an play quite well, but..... Av 240 yards of the tee shows you how short the courses they play are. Maybe they flip it around the golf course becasue they don't need to hit it 270? Creamer wins loads and hits it nowhere. How many guys on the mens tour, in the last 5 years have had mutiple season wins(you can win one tournament putting like freak - but not 2 or 3 in the same year) and are outside the top 40 in driving distance..

Brian what's your take on the LPGA tour and flipping!! Is it because they don't need the power like the mens tour or is it a biomechanical issue, physiological issue or genetic or what??? I'd like to hear what the TPI guys or anyone who has compared bio-mech data on PGA and LPGA tour research has shown.

I think that the mens game is such a power game now that they just can't have any leakage and get up there and compete regularly - unlike the LPGA - just look how many guys turn to Trackman for impact optimisation now.

 

[thefuture37]

Creamer doesn't flip. At least she doesn't if you don't consider Ben Curtis to be a flipper(which is the Manzella party line). Check out a swing sequence. Perhaps the reason she doesn't hit it very far is because she is only 5'9 and is *gasp* built like a girl!