"Bumpy Back" vs Diagonal Stance

[Svenster]

Hope I'm not out of line bringing in Dariusz' 'diagonal stance' concept to the forum but as it appears to be diametrically opposed to art's "bumpy back keep it back" concept I was wondering if anyone has tried one or both of the set-ups and what their results were.

I've only been to the range a couple of times this year so far and did give 'bumpy back' a try and I seemed to have better strikes, as in a faster swing speed giving me some distance improvement, as art suggested would happen. I haven't had the chance to try out 'diagonal stance' so I was wondering if anyone else had given that set up a try and what happened.

Might this be just one more example of "whatever works" or is there more to this, esp. considering that one concept is based on closing the hips while the other is about having open hips at set up.

 

[art]

Hope I'm not out of line bringing in Dariusz' 'diagonal stance' concept to the forum but as it appears to be diametrically opposed to art's "bumpy back keep it back" concept I was wondering if anyone has tried one or both of the set-ups and what their results were.

I've only been to the range a couple of times this year so far and did give 'bumpy back' a try and I seemed to have better strikes, as in a faster swing speed giving me some distance improvement, as art suggested would happen. I haven't had the chance to try out 'diagonal stance' so I was wondering if anyone else had given that set up a try and what happened.

Might this be just one more example of "whatever works" or is there more to this, esp. considering that one concept is based on closing the hips while the other is about having open hips at set up.

Dear Svenster,

The past 5 years of my life have been spent studying the body's role in the full golf swing. What I have learned is that the most important aspects preventing golfers from improving are simply TEMPO inconsistencies, and INSUFFICIENT DYNAMIC BALANCE.

The 'Bumpy Back, keep it Back', is a hopefully humorous way of conveying the need for ALL golfers to have set-up characteristics that allow the lower body, to generate additional stability margin during the explosive down swing.

If you were lucky enough to be able to hit golf balls while standing on two high response foot force plates, you would see for the first time, forces other than your weight that exceed the bodies ability to maintain dynamic stability.

In the absence of these force plates, take a look at the folks on the driving range, and watch the POST IMPACT dances many of them make in trying to arrest these stability exceedances.

Not to worry though, because if you do the Bumpy Back set-up, you should have sufficient stabilizing forces/torques to offset the down swing disturbances. If not, reread my post regarding lowering your body 'one inch at a time', in addition to the Bumpy Back, and that should be sufficient to help almost ALL body shapes to be sufficiently dynamically stable to enjoy the BEST ball striking of your golf life.

Looking forward to how Darius answers your request.

Sincerely,
art

 

[Matt Bryda]

Dear Svenster,

The past 5 years of my life have been spent studying the body's role in the full golf swing. What I have learned is that the most important aspects preventing golfers from improving are simply TEMPO inconsistencies, and INSUFFICIENT DYNAMIC BALANCE.

The 'Bumpy Back, keep it Back', is a hopefully humorous way of conveying the need for ALL golfers to have set-up characteristics that allow the lower body, to generate additional stability margin during the explosive down swing.

If you were lucky enough to be able to hit golf balls while standing on two high response foot force plates, you would see for the first time, forces other than your weight that exceed the bodies ability to maintain dynamic stability.

In the absence of these force plates, take a look at the folks on the driving range, and watch the POST IMPACT dances many of them make in trying to arrest these stability exceedances.

Not to worry though, because if you do the Bumpy Back set-up, you should have sufficient stabilizing forces/torques to offset the down swing disturbances. If not, reread my post regarding lowering your body 'one inch at a time', in addition to the Bumpy Back, and that should be sufficient to help almost ALL body shapes to be sufficiently dynamically stable to enjoy the BEST ball striking of your golf life.

Looking forward to how Darius answers your request.

Sincerely,
art

Art,

Thanks for all your helpful post about creating stability during the down swinging motion.

Are there any physical issues that may prevent anyone from having success with your advice about "Bumby Back, kepp it back" like back or hip problems.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Svenster,

All basic things you would like to know about the diagonal stance concept is here:

Biokinetic Golf Swing Theory: The Diagonal Stance

It's easier to copy the link that to rewrite it all. The concept is pure genial and I am astonished noone else paid more attention to this aspect of stance before. Or better said, used Hogan's, Burke's, Knudson's and Dickinson's wisdom.

Cheers

 

[GeoffDickson]

Bump Back 101

I would like to ensure that I understand Art's 'bumpy back' concept correctly:

1. Push back right hip at address (without changing anything else)
2. Commence downswing with this swing thought: the internal rotational velocity of the RIGHT hip joint MUST be significantly lower than that of the LEFT hip joint.

 

[art]

Art,

Thanks for all your helpful post about creating stability during the down swinging motion.

Are there any physical issues that may prevent anyone from having success with your advice about "Bumby Back, kepp it back" like back or hip problems.

Dear Matt,

All evidence and experience I have today indicates that there are calculable reductions in stresses to the lower back (the Crunch Factor), and much more qualitatively, the necessary reductions in hip and pelvis angular velocities for increased dynamic stability, should lower the stresses on the hip joints too.

As background, in a previous post, I told the story of my first presentation at the Titleist Performance Institute (TPI) to Dave Phillips, Dr. Greg Rose, and Phil Cheetham who fortunately was there developing a paper on the comparison of the kinematic sequences of accomplished and amateur golfers.

The summary of this almost 3 hour exchange, was AGREEMENT that a 'mostly rotary' swing style that incorporated better dynamic balance would reduce dispersion, would be less prone to back injury, BUT by their experiences and test results, would NOT be able to produce the club head speeds of other more 'lateral and weight shift' swing styles.

The 2 hour drive home convinced me I had to better understand the 'power potential', but MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY I had to better understand the stresses to the lower back, as this area produced the highest injury rates for accomplished AND amateur golfers world wide.

The medical research available in 2007 and 2008 was not IMO sufficient to support the conclusion that 'Bumpy Back' was clearly less stressful as other swing styles, and my attempts to continue research at the Centinela Hospital Bio-mechanical Lab were lost when economic conditions caused its closure.

Fortunately at a K-Vest Certification meeting at The Golf Academy of America, I provided elements of my work (and frustration) to a medical doctor from The Cleveland Clinic, and showed him that even the development of a medical based opinion/research of both the 'Crunch Factor', and a suggestion of a 'dynamic Crunch Factor' of golfers of varying capabilities AND various states of previous and present degrees of lower back condition would be of GREAT value to both the golf teaching AND golf playing communities, totaling tens of millions of people world wide.

The first phase of this work involving tests on 11 subjects has been completed, fortunately supports our hypotheses of reduced stresses, and is in peer review, before it can vbe published. The second phase has been scoped in several levels of involvement of interest to us, and is being proposed to several organizations for appropriate level of 'Grant Funding'. IDEAS OF FUNDING SUPPORT ARE SOLICITED HERE IF YOU AGREE OF THE IMPORTANCE OF QUANTIFYING THESE AREAS.

So, in conclusion, go for 'Bumpy Back" as a start to develop at least lower body dynamic balance, and as I hav suggested in previous posts, ramp up from 50% energy level to the desired level making sure the student DOES NOT develop forward leg/foot movement from their position at the end of the set-up preceding the back swing.

Respectfully,
art


Fortunately, I will remain involved, and to the degree I am allowed, continue to report the summary results to you on this site.

 

[art]

I would like to ensure that I understand Art's 'bumpy back' concept correctly:

1. Push back right hip at address (without changing anything else)
2. Commence downswing with this swing thought: the internal rotational velocity of the RIGHT hip joint MUST be significantly lower than that of the LEFT hip joint.

Dear GeoffDickson,

That is a GREAT summary, and as I have said in a previous post, THIS IS NOT A TYPICAL GOLF TIP. I HATE Tips, as the golf swing is an extremely complicated event, and to make it better needs an INTEGRATED solution for which Bumpy Back, just gets your integrated solution for the lower body started.

To support your fine summary regarding the hips, watch your friends at the driving range AND even the professionals on TV, and see how most of them FIRE the right hip first, exacerbating the LOSS of dynamic stability requiring significant compensating in the 0.250 second, explosive downswing. Doesn't work very well, so Bumpy Back, KEEP IT BACK, to let that left hip get started first, and by keeping the rear hip back as long as possible, (but not strained), you will have met the criteria you so eloquently posted as #2.

Regards, and thanks for your support in the past,
art

 

[Svenster]

Thanks art and Dariusz for your responses.

art, when I try the bumpy back my knees want to close along with my hip. What I mean is, when my knees (and feet) are parallel in relation to the target line on set up and I turn my hip closed, my forward knee moves toward the target line and my trailing knee moves away from the target line (i.e. my knees end up closed as well). Am I doing the bumpy back correctly or should I strive to keep my knees as much the same as possible (i.e. still parallel to my feet and the target line) as they are at set up when I turn my hip closed? Hopefully I'm describing this in a way that makes sense.

Dariusz, thanks for the link. I actually read it before and was intrigued by the concept because it not only spoke to dynamic stability but also ball position for all clubs. I haven't had a chance to try the concept out yet but do plan on giving it a go next week while I'm on my annual "golf boot camp" in Scottsdale. My original post was mostly to find out if others had tried the diagonal stance and what their results were. As stated above, I have tried the bumpy back and noticed an improvement in my ball striking but will be trying out both concepts next week on the range and if anyone is interested I'll post my results.

Thanks again art and Dariusz.

 

[Dariusz J.]

You're welcome, Svenster. FYI, there are quite a few posts from people of various skills adopting the diagonal stance concept on my little forum as well as the other one I am active in apart from Brian's.
Do not hesitate to ask if something needs further assistance.

Cheers

 

[sacto84]

Taking Arts’ advice, I’ve been doing range sessions with the driver using the pre-turned trail hip at setup concept. I’m surprised at the success I’m having with this setup. It took a couple of range sessions to adjust to the difference in feel from my normal setup, but once I became comfortable the shots improved dramatically: (1) I picked up an additional 15 yards carry with no feeling of additional effort in the DS. (2) more importantly the shot dispersion was reduced significantly, and (3) there was less stress on the lower back. Trackman indicated that on most shots I had picked up an average of 4.5 mph additional clubhead speed and occasionally more.

I can’t fully explain why this was occurring but I can say with certainty that my balance was better and I could swing faster into impact without fear of losing my positions. From the pre-turned hip position you can merely use the lower body (hips) to support the upper body rotation or you can choose to use the hips actively to add some force to the DS. In either case the pre-set of the trail hip seems to aid in the sequencing and timing of the DS; mostly I think because you can pre-set the trail hip to a position you like and not worry about trying to find that hip position in the BS from a regular setup position. The feeling is one of having a much freer swing with better balance.
One thing I’m still playing around with is the weight placement after pre-turning the trail hip. My best results came from pre-turning the trail hip into a firm trail leg and not shifting too much weight onto the trail foot during the BS, just a slight torque into the trail foot instep. At times there is a feeling of very little weight shift to the trail side and using a single post swing like the right side swing taught by Gary Irwin out of Australia.

I’ve only hit about 600 balls so it’s still a work in progress, but I like the concept enough to try it with the irons and experiment some more with weight shifting and some active use of the hip in the DS. For now I can say that the concept works for me.

 

[crkranz]

I tried this 'bumpy back' today at the range. Sometimes it would click and I would hit is great and sometimes it just made my whole swing feel un-athletic and I would duck hook it. I will keep experimenting as the good swings were encouraging. Irons seemed easier to do this with than 3 wood and driver for me.

 

[KGlennCole]

Art,

When you bump back, do you move in a slight lateral move back along the target line or a slight rotational move perpendicular to the target line (thereby closing the hips ever so slight)? I assume one must take care not to unknowingly mess up shoulder alignment, etc.

Do I even understand?

 

[art]

Art,

When you bump back, do you move in a slight lateral move back along the target line or a slight rotational move perpendicular to the target line (thereby closing the hips ever so slight)? I assume one must take care not to unknowingly mess up shoulder alignment, etc.

Do I even understand?

Perfect understanding, just a slightly closed starting location for the hips, AND NOT A BUMP BACK. If you have been following my posts regarding the importance of lower body stability margin, you will find a story about a Mexican American Driving Range employee, who when I pointed to the right cheek of my 'posterior',and I said 'Bippy" (for the Saturday Night Live comment, "you bet your BIPPY"), Antonio said, "no Arturo, BUMPY NOT BIPPY", so forever it will be BUMPY BACK...., as Antonia 'striped' the next shot 250, right down the middle, and IMO, so will you.

Back to business, shoulders and everything else the same.

We are trying to pick up 10-20% more dynamic stability from the lower body so you can rotate the upper body without triggering reflex reactions from not being in the dynamic stability ZONE during the explosive downswing.

If this is incosistent, or doesn't work at all, please just bend your knees about an inch, feeling more athletic, and of course, 'Bumpy back, keep it back'.

Good ball striking,
art

 

[OLIVER1]

Art,
Given that at the onset of the downswing the left hip will move and pull the right hip with it, is there an optimal prescription for the way the right hip should work to allow it to lag - in effect - the left hip and let the arms pass it ?
Thanks
Olly

 

[Svenster]

art, can you check my post above about what the knees should be doing during the "bumpy back"?

BTW, re-reading the origins of the term you coined I can't help but mention that your Latino friend may have said, "pompis", pronounced "pompi", which is slang for bum/buttock. I say this as one who is married to a Venezuelan and I've heard the term before.

Be that as it may, I like your term and am looking forward to your response about what happens to the knees in a well-performed "bumpy back".

Thanks in advance.

 

[Matt Bryda]

Than you for your reply Art.

I always enjoy reading your posts.

 

[art]

Art,
Given that at the onset of the downswing the left hip will move and pull the right hip with it, is there an optimal prescription for the way the right hip should work to allow it to lag - in effect - the left hip and let the arms pass it ?
Thanks
Olly

Dear Olly (finally a real name to respond to; thanks),

I strive for simplicity, but have learned from the many posts I have read AND STUDIED, that you folks really work hard on details that I do not find necessary.

I understand and TRUST the body to process and even optimize some of the 'simple' things I ask of it. For instance, Bumpy back.. HOW FAR ??

On some posts I have suggested 'just take out the rotary slack', others I have suggested, push harder, placing it 'into the block', based on another post. At any rate the further you COMFORTABLY pre-set the rear hip into a more rotary and closed position WITHOUT disturbing your shoulders, or any other part of your set-up, the MORE lower body dynamic balance stability margin you are likely to develop. And you sure will need this for your explosive 3-5 horsepower, and 80-120 mile per hour downswing.

Now more specifically to you question about how the hips need to move during the downswing.

Here Olly, I don't want you to over work the problem with what Tim Gallwey in "The Inner Game of Golf"would call "to do instructions". I don't want YOU or anyone else to do anything more than finish the set up with 'Bumpy back, keep it back', but NOT forcefully. During the start of the downswing, the rear hip will quickly follow the movements of the pelvis and left hip NATURAL rotations, I just want your rear hip to be the last to join that rotating parade, NATURALLY.

You might want to video your set-up and first move down to see and determine how very important it is to NOT let the rear hip LEAD THE PARADE AS IN ALMOST EVERYBODY ELSE'S swings. IMO, they are on the edge of lower body DYNAMIC INSTABILITIES, so help them later after you make this a habit.

Finally, there is real science here, and the lead hip rotating before the rear hip will IMO start the Golf World War III, as this finding ALSO condemns the standard practice and documentation 'fire those hips as fast as possible', and 'the faster the pelvic/hip angular velocity, the better'. IMO, and with growing evidence, these fast hip/pelvis proponents are encouraging swings with significantly increased error content, but much more importantly, significantly increased injury potential as at least measured by the 'Crunch Factor', or better yet the 'Dynamic crunch factor'.

So, in conclusion, just pull the rear hip out from the Bumpy back, by the very natural movement of you lead hip. The reference to 'movement' leaves the necessary room for this to be YOUR natural start of the downswing and there is nothing wrong with a little lateral movement before the rotation if that is your present habit.

Before long I hope to be able to contribute other high science content, but simple set-up and swing moves involving more than just the lower body, to help all golfers improve.

Regards,
art

 

[OLIVER1]

Dear Olly (finally a real name to respond to; thanks),

I shall pass on your regards to my mother, father and local registry office!


Art, I always look forward to your posts: Precise, concise (well, as concise as one can really be on a golf forum!!) and always filled to the brim with absolute nuggets of gold.
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I look forward to having a root around my swing and see if I can't hang my hat on some of your trail hip thoughts...
Warmest Regards

 

[birly-shirly]

Art - I don't know whether you feel that tour pro, ghost-written, anecdotal validation of your ideas is helpful. If you do, I think you'd enjoy Faldo's The Winning Formula and also Nick Price's The Golf Swing. Both express downswing thoughts about the hip movement that are very much in line with what you've posted.

 

[art]

Art - I don't know whether you feel that tour pro, ghost-written, anecdotal validation of your ideas is helpful. If you do, I think you'd enjoy Faldo's The Winning Formula and also Nick Price's The Golf Swing. Both express downswing thoughts about the hip movement that are very much in line with what you've posted.

Dear birly-shirly,

Thank you for the references above.

I am very pleased that two great golfers, due to the lack of the availability of a supporting golf related scientific community, labored thru a 'trial and error' process to draw conclusions that were best for their swings. Then, fortunately for us, they took the time to write about it and in my case give us the additional satisfaction of indicating that we are now probably on an effective 'science'-supported track.

In the case of what I have studied regarding especially the hip movement, I started with an understanding and analytical methods 'borrowed' from the robotics industry, where GREAT sums of money were spent over the past several decades to increase the manufacturing efficiency of just about everything from cars, to chips, to even prostate operations (just a shot of retaining some of Brian's senior readers).

So, the technical clincher for me was when I combined these dynamic stability thoughts with the rotary disturbances I saw (every 0.004 seconds) from the data on the AMM/TPI 12 sensor system, similar to what Michael Jacobs now has at his facility on Long Island.

The only other piece needed was an understanding of where the 'instantaneous' centers of rotation were for the major body parts involved in the golf swing. The break through for me was a golf swing related thesis on 'Instantaneous Screw axis theory'. Integrating all of this data together strongly indicated that 'Bumpy back, keep it back', alone, may be able to provide almost all of the additional lower body dynamic stability and margin most golfers would need. In addition, 'the keep it back' created the relationship of the lead and trail hip angular velocity differences required to balance most expected upper body centripetal disturbing forces.

Hope this puts a little meat on the science-based bones to indicate that we all may be able to short cut, or at least shorten the trial and error time it took the two Great 'Nicks' to discover something about the movement of the hips.

I wish they were able to take a position on my next controversial 'hypothesis', that regarding the angular velocity of the hips, slower is better, for less injury, less dispersion, AND unbelievably (but test results are verifying), more club head velocity.

Regards,
art

Now we just need people like you to require that the 'real scientists' go to work to make this 'hypothesis', 'golf truth'.