"Bumpy Back" vs Diagonal Stance

[art]

ART: Some further experimentation with the pre-turned trail hip. I apologize in advance for a long post. As I said previously, using this set-up provided more distance and less dispersion; mainly I think because if I set the trail hip and kept it back until later in the DS I had a freer swing (better pivot) and the rotational speed picked up without the fear of losing balance. I could also set the trail hip where I wanted it instead of trying to find that position in each swing from a regular set-up. Dynamic balance was much improved and consistent unless I over accelerated in the DS and would override the levers.

You wanted a description of the lead hip action so I’ll provide first what worked best FOR ME (not to say it will work best for everyone). (Unfortunately I was not able to get on Trackman so the numbers will have to wait until a later date):

No. 1 - From a reverse K setup I pulled the trail hip back about 4 inches with all irons except the wedges. The trail hip moved back into a braced trail leg with a slightly flared rear foot. I do not shift weight to the trail side except to the extent I feel a slight clockwise torque in the trail foot. To accommodate the trail hip moving back I allow the lead knee to flex a little toward the lead foot so as to not sway toward the trail side.

In the BS I try to perform a helical twist of the spine to get a full shoulder turn while turning into the pre-set trail hip. No slide of the hips. At the top of the BS I feel a weight distribution of about 50-50 but more torque against the braced trail leg. The lead hip has turned more to the rear and slightly downward.

I start the DS by pressing down with the lead foot and doing an ever so slight squat as the arms begin to drop (yes, I do a back-toss type move with the hands and use a throwing motion in the swing).

At the start of the DS I resist with the lead hip against the tendency to immediately open that hip. Then later in the DS I move the lead hip from low to high and back using what I feel is a helical movement; no slide. I keep the trail hip back as the DS starts and don’t release it until I make the lead hip move. This is not difficult to time once you give it some practice. Nice free rotation and excellent balance. I’ll take the additional 15 yards it’s providing but far more importantly I like the reduction in dispersion that results. Easier to hold the spine angles and keep the butt back in the DS. No goat-humping moves

No. 2 - Second best was performing the above mechanics but late in the DS I would use a thrust of the trail hip from about 4 o’clock to 10 o’clock. This is along the lines of what Austin taught and is featured in the May issue of Golf Magazine on Rory Mcllroys’ power move with the hips. Yes, I was able to add yards, perhaps an average of 12 over #1, but the dispersion increased dramatically. Probably because I’m not used to swinging this way, or because I’m not doing it properly. Had a few goat-humping moves when I used the trail hip too soon in the DS. (This holds promise for future experimentation)

No. 3- Third best was doing the above but this time I moved the spine a little more rearward and loaded more weight on the trail leg in the BS. Almost a double post type of swing. I also cranked the trail hip deeper in the pre-set. This set-up necessitated some slide with the hips in the DS to get back to center and a different timing of the release of the lead hip. Had a few shots that went additional 7 or 8 yards over #2 but the dispersion was totally unacceptable. Not much consistency. Again, either I’m not familiar with the timing or I’m performing the mechanics improperly or out of sequence.

There are other adjustments I fooled around with such as an open or closed stance, a steeper or flatter angle of approach, and a regular centered set-up, but didn’t hit enough with these adjustments to be able to establish a trend .

Distance wise with the No. 1 swing, the sand wedge went from a regular 105 yards to 115-118 with the same effort I usually use. Eight iron went from 155 to a steady 168 on average, more if I used No. 2 (but not as accurate). I did bust one with the eight iron that went 175 but I'm not sure why and could not repeat it. Five iron went from 185-190 to a steady 200 to 210 for many hits but dropped back down to 185-190 when I somehow lost the sequencing. I’m the master of over acceleration so that may be the culprit.

In experimenting with this set-up on the range I purpously got aggressive with my swing to see what I could get out of that type of set-up and swing. On the course I suspect I would naturally be less inclined to be that aggressive and trend toward more conservative play. I will take it to the course next week and see how things pan out either way.

I think your “Bumpy Back, Keep It Back” hypothesis has merit judging from the short time I’ve experimented with it, and will report further if I have something worth contributing. Would appreciate hearing from any others that have had some success with this set-up.

Any further suggestions you may have regarding this hypothesis are welcome. I’ll give them an honest go. Any questions, go ahead and ask.

Dear sacto84,

Just a short note (believe it or not from me), to publicly express my sincere appreciation for the extent and quality or your TESTING AND REPORTING.

When I started this science trip in January 2007, friends and even family just laughed at my passion and intensity. My response was always the same, honestly believing I was given a 'gift' that I had to share with other golfers.

Trying to pass on my 'incremental' discoveries using the 47 year background from a completely different industry, then being able to utilize the 'operations research', and statistics lessons from my brother, and then graduate school gave me the confidence to 'power thru' those times when I was just plain not believed and frequently rejected. And, the common characteristics of this antagonism to a person, did not provoke ANY constructive elements, and definitely no signs of a science-based dialog.

That all changed with an e-mail to Brian Manzella days before his first Anti Summit in 2010. The 'positive' response came in hours from Mike Finney, who honestly wanted to know what I was proposing.

The rest is history as I personally was able to meet Billy McKinney and Jon Hardesty after corresponding and frequently talking with Jon following the Anti Summit.. Then months later, Brian was able to get to Billy's club, along with my introduction also to Trackman, and students of Billy and Brian from Austria and Australia respectively that Saturday morning.

So now, after my initial post in only February of 2012, 5 years after a giant 'scoop' of golf truth curiosity, I am proud and appreciative to be a contributor on this site.

More importantly however, is the sincere, quality, and detailed feedback you have frequently provided further excites my enthusiasm and energies.

My most sincere thanks,
art

 

[birly-shirly]

Art - a question, please.

You talk about the lead hip moving earlier and faster into transition and downswing than the trailing hip. Hence "keep it back".

The only way I can envision this move is as a lateral separation of the knees - (for a right-hander) the left knee pulling away from the right to begin the downswing. This seems like the move described elsewhere as the squat, or (with more precision than I usually muster) as dual external rotation of the hips.

Are we talking about the same move? Hopefully, you'll agree that it's helpful to clarify. I think that for many golfers, and much conventional instruction, the idea of the hips moving at different rates will be quite novel.

 

[bendet3]

Art,

Thanks for your contributions to the forum, specifically with the pre-turned hip, could you talk about how the knees should change at address with the the Bumpy back setup? My understanding is that the upper body should try and remain square to the target line as the hip is pulled back, just was wondering about the knees. Thanks.

Tim

 

[art]

Art - a question, please.

You talk about the lead hip moving earlier and faster into transition and downswing than the trailing hip. Hence "keep it back".

The only way I can envision this move is as a lateral separation of the knees - (for a right-hander) the left knee pulling away from the right to begin the downswing. This seems like the move described elsewhere as the squat, or (with more precision than I usually muster) as dual external rotation of the hips.

Are we talking about the same move? Hopefully, you'll agree that it's helpful to clarify. I think that for many golfers, and much conventional instruction, the idea of the hips moving at different rates will be quite novel.

Dear birly-shirly,

I am not acquainted with terminology such as knee lateral separation, or a 'squat' move, or even external rotation of the hips. And if you will permit me to VENT a little bit, I think trying to CONTROL 'stuff' like that, at such a low level of kinesiological movement detail, contaminates the body’s ability to perform in its most efficient way.

I could be very wrong here, but please at least hear me out. Every one of the 3 characteristics you stated suggests that the brain may be asked to CONTROL them sometime during the explosive transition and down swing.

The 'integrated ' solution that I propose, while sounding almost childish, 'Bumpy back, keep it back', is all the 'instruction' I believe every golfer needs to execute a baseline, lower body dynamically balanced swing. Subsequent improvements may be, deeper position, or maybe even additional knee bending to develop additional stability.

Above all, I am a strong believer that the body will correctly position and move the knees, control the movement appearing to be a ‘squat’, and deliver a smooth and coordinated rotation of the lead and trail hips WITHOUT trying to control knees, torso/lower body, and hips during the swing.

Simply stated, AS A START just set-up as suggested, take your personal and standard back swing, and flow into the transition and down swing retaining AWARENESS that the trail hip FOLLOWED the lead hip. It is CRUCIAL that the trail hip absolutely did not precede and BLOCK, or get in front of, in the way of the upper body and arms during this early part of the downswing.

As for your comment about the hips moving at different rates, I was referring to inside the hip joints, as I have written about is several earlier posts that also involve an understanding of recent research on ‘instantaneous screw axis theory’ as it applies to the various rotating elements of the body during the golf swing. Of particular interest to me was the relative motion within the hip joints/sockets, especially when I uncovered the need for these to be significantly different rates (lead hip joint/socket almost twice the angular rate as the trail joint/socket) for increased lower body dynamic stability. I hope that answers and clarifies your question.

Regards,
art

 

[art]

Art,

Thanks for your contributions to the forum, specifically with the pre-turned hip, could you talk about how the knees should change at address with the the Bumpy back setup? My understanding is that the upper body should try and remain square to the target line as the hip is pulled back, just was wondering about the knees. Thanks.

Tim

Dear Tim,

Please see the post below in response to birly-shirly.

As for the knees at the end of the 'Bumpy back' set-up, I trust the body to find the best position for the knees, and discourage trying to 'dictate' a position, and suggest that a golfer should try to control the position and trajectory of them during the swing. IMO, that is control at too low a level, and deprives the body to find the best position for each knee based on the bigger requirement of dynamic balance.

BUT, as a starting point for just the initial set up, I would, suggest 'aiming' the coccyx straight down, between your feet (affecting both knee positions), and try to have the knees over some part of their respective feet.

Regards,
art

 

[birly-shirly]

Dear birly-shirly,

I am not acquainted with terminology such as knee lateral separation, or a 'squat' move, or even external rotation of the hips. And if you will permit me to VENT a little bit, I think trying to CONTROL 'stuff' like that, at such a low level of kinesiological movement detail, contaminates the body’s ability to perform in its most efficient way.

I could be very wrong here, but please at least hear me out. Every one of the 3 characteristics you stated suggests that the brain may be asked to CONTROL them sometime during the explosive transition and down swing.

The 'integrated ' solution that I propose, while sounding almost childish, 'Bumpy back, keep it back', is all the 'instruction' I believe every golfer needs to execute a baseline, lower body dynamically balanced swing. Subsequent improvements may be, deeper position, or maybe even additional knee bending to develop additional stability.

Above all, I am a strong believer that the body will correctly position and move the knees, control the movement appearing to be a ‘squat’, and deliver a smooth and coordinated rotation of the lead and trail hips WITHOUT trying to control knees, torso/lower body, and hips during the swing.

Simply stated, AS A START just set-up as suggested, take your personal and standard back swing, and flow into the transition and down swing retaining AWARENESS that the trail hip FOLLOWED the lead hip. It is CRUCIAL that the trail hip absolutely did not precede and BLOCK, or get in front of, in the way of the upper body and arms during this early part of the downswing.

As for your comment about the hips moving at different rates, I was referring to inside the hip joints, as I have written about is several earlier posts that also involve an understanding of recent research on ‘instantaneous screw axis theory’ as it applies to the various rotating elements of the body during the golf swing. Of particular interest to me was the relative motion within the hip joints/sockets, especially when I uncovered the need for these to be significantly different rates (lead hip joint/socket almost twice the angular rate as the trail joint/socket) for increased lower body dynamic stability. I hope that answers and clarifies your question.

Regards,
art

Art - no-one enjoys a simple explanation (or should that be "a HIGH level kinesiological movement detail"?) more than me.

I like simple concepts, to which I can fill in the detail by actually hitting balls. I can wrap my head around "right hip back" - but as an instruction for the golf swing, I still feel that this begs the question of what goes forward, in order to "flow into the transition and down swing".

I hold, dearly, to the idea that one can KNOW or BE AWARE of what is happening, even the sequence in which it happens - without necessarily trying to CONTROL it.

But thank you for clarifying your position.

 

[art]

Art - no-one enjoys a simple explanation (or should that be "a HIGH level kinesiological movement detail"?) more than me.

I like simple concepts, to which I can fill in the detail by actually hitting balls. I can wrap my head around "right hip back" - but as an instruction for the golf swing, I still feel that this begs the question of what goes forward, in order to "flow into the transition and down swing".

I hold, dearly, to the idea that one can KNOW or BE AWARE of what is happening, even the sequence in which it happens - without necessarily trying to CONTROL it.

But thank you for clarifying your position.

Dear birly-shirly,


Sorry about not clearly defining what comes after the set up, but I am sure you understand that 'keep it back' had to do with the transition and downswing, based on your earlier question about the different hip joint angular velocities. In my experience, keeping the right, or rear hip back IS ANATOMICALLY IMPOSSIBLE, and in reality, watching golfers try to execute this 'instruction' has really resulted in 'keeping the back to the target longer', which is FINE, and in direct answer to your final question/concern above, is exactly what I recommend as a simple, and understandable teaching instruction.

So I would just expand the "keep it back" to refer to both the rear hip AND THE GOLFERS BACK (to the target, longer), and after "BUMPY back, would follow this with the golfers regular take-away/back swing, then flow thru the transition and early downswing, keeping their back (and rear hip) back as long as possible, anatomically.

Based on the criteria of better ball contact and the resultant increased distance/higher club head velocity, the combination of these instructions is still 100 percent successful which I attribute completely to the resultant increase in lower body dynamic stability, and improved kinematic sequencing, which I have not yet presented on this site.

Really hope this helps,

Regards,
art

 

[jbrunk]

I had some good success with the combo of back into the target and 'bumpy back'. It helps me feel the pulling force between my arms and the club.

 

[art]

Hope I'm not out of line bringing in Dariusz' 'diagonal stance' concept to the forum but as it appears to be diametrically opposed to art's "bumpy back keep it back" concept I was wondering if anyone has tried one or both of the set-ups and what their results were.

I've only been to the range a couple of times this year so far and did give 'bumpy back' a try and I seemed to have better strikes, as in a faster swing speed giving me some distance improvement, as art suggested would happen. I haven't had the chance to try out 'diagonal stance' so I was wondering if anyone else had given that set up a try and what happened.

Might this be just one more example of "whatever works" or is there more to this, esp. considering that one concept is based on closing the hips while the other is about having open hips at set up.

Dear Svenster,

As you probably know, 'Google' has picked up this thread so I thought it proper to document the 'truth' about 'Bumpy Back, keep it back', and re-attach it to your post for completeness

GOOGLE SEARCH ADDS “BUMPY BACK vs DIAGONAL STANCE” –THE BUMPY BACK STORY

One sunny day while I was trying to get some science-based swing-change experience with my driver, Antonio, an employee of a driving range in southern California, appeared, picking up ball baskets, and as usual, I handed him the driver, put a ball on the rubber tee and said "Antonio, hit a few balls". He did, and with his powerful swing faded/sliced them DEEP into the right hand corner of the driving range. As he appreciatively handed the club back to me I declined, and said, pointing to my right hip pocket, "Antonio, what do you call this in Spanish or Mexican?" He hesitated, and then I THOUGHT HE SAID “BIPPY”.
Remembering the TV show 'Laugh In', I locked on to the often used expression in that program, “You bet your Bippy” and immediately thought ‘Bippy back, keep it back’, could provide the possibility of putting both some much needed ‘dynamic balance’ and humor into the golf teaching process. So for several months, for me at least, the resultant instruction during any analyzing/ testing lower body dynamic balance, and based on ANTONIO’S TRANSLATION, simply became "Bippy back, keep it back".

That is until the next time I saw him on the driving range, and as usual handed him the driver and watched to see, if as he set up, he would remember our last get together and ‘Bippy back, keep it back’. So, as usual, I put a ball on the rubber tee for Antonio, stepped away, and bang, without a word, the ball flew into the top right hand side of the driving range with his natural fade/slice.
"NO!, NO!, Antonio”, I cried out, “what happened to ‘Bippy back, keep it back” . He looked dazed as I continued to point to my right rear pocket repeating "Bippy, Bippy, you bet your Bippy Antonio”. His response was just as demonstrative as mine, as he said, "No, no, NOT Bippy" (and then came my next mistake, because I thought he said) "BUMPY, BUMPY, NOT BIPPY". Great I repeated, "Bumpy back, keep it back", and although he looked surprised and a bit confused, he put his 'whatever' back and with the better dynamic balance, hit the ball right down the middle rolling to the back fence. Then, just for fun, he did it a few more times saying, I thought, ‘Bumpy back, Bumpy back’, then, purposefully 'over accentuating' the right hip turn almost like he was doing a funny dance with his hips.

Satisfied I now had a potentially humorous expression AND a science-based and proven method to help golfers improve by developing more dynamic stability, I began to use this expression corresponding with a few noted professional golf instructors and scientists with whom I have been working , and more recently, in answering golfers swing questions 'posted' on the internet site, Brian Manzella Golf Forum - The Front Page .

In early February this year, excited about being able to help the first persons post by my response, I answered his specific questions about basic balance, and finished with the suggestion that he slightly change his set up to develop more potential lower body dynamic stability during the downswing and wrote for the first time on the internet, "BUMPY BACK, KEEP IT BACK'.

Now for the past several months, and over 100 posts, the response has been significant and positive as many folks literally around the globe tried it, and have reported that for the first time in their golfing life, they have experienced a more stable lower body, a few even reporting feeling more relaxed during the swing.
With each response, I felt success in both conveying the thought of a way to develop better balance, and in my opinion,BECAUSE OF ANTONIO, in a slightly humorous way until a few weeks ago. In a short post, for all the golfing world to see, a fellow ‘poster’ on the web site with whom I have been communicating, and whose wife is Venezuelan, noted "Art, do you possibly mean “POMPI BACK, KEEP IT BACK ". ( Mexican slang for buttock or butt)

So Fellow Manzella-ites, any suggestions as to what I should do now?

Best regards,
Art


.

 

[redhillgolfpro]

"Bump" back to top (no pun intended!!)

I'm intrigued by this.. Sacto84 have you any more findings?!

 

[sacto84]

Red: For an update I’ll say I’m continuing the experimentation with the pre-turned trail hip and having some nice results:

One aspect I mentioned before and has become more apparent with practice is that by pre-turning the trail hip to your desired location you don’t need to try and find that location during your BS; it is already pre-set and you have one less moving part to time correctly.
As I have become more comfortable with the pre-turned hip concept my clubhead speed has increased another 2 mph for a total increase of 6.5 mph. Mostly I think because if I keep the hip back longer during the DS I get a freer rotation of the upper torso with more stability and balance throughout the DS.

Most of the practice has been with just using the lower body to stabilize the DS rather than an active use of the hips to generate more speed. However, I recently started practicing the No. 2 method referred to in my post No. 40 in this thread because of the increase in distance it can provide if done properly. With this method I fire the trail hip from about 4 o’clock to 10 o’clock (between the feet and the target line) late in the DS to assist the rotation to the trail side and produce more clubhead speed. The flaw here can be a goat-humping move if you fire that hip too soon or don’t hold your spine angles, but I get less of that as my sequencing improves. I recall from some instruction Mike Dunaway gave years ago that you should make the trail hip chase the hands and not visa-versa. (As a long drive champion and a driver tester for Calloway Golf, he had some good instruction for hitting the driver a long way). This has been working well with the pre-turned hip because that trail hip is already in a pre-set start position to be used at the proper time if I want to use it, and I can count on it being in the same start position on each swing.

With this No. 2 method I have a little more weight transfer to the braced trail leg in the BS, but not a slide of the hips to the rear as you would with a compound pivot or a double posted swing. Best I can say right now is I’m a little more center posted but still favor the lead side do some extent.

I’ve only been on the course once with this swing and shot a 37 for nine holes. The best part of this swing was the reduction in dispersion with the irons. I played a less aggressive swing than on the range, but sensed that once I’ve got the sequencing down a little better I can be more aggressive with less concern about losing balance or positions and ruining the swing.

I will continue to experiment with the No. 2 method and see how that pans out.

 

[Svenster]

The 'dirty rotten scoundrel' who messed up art's back story to "bumpy back, keep it back" reporting.

I utilized bumpy back with pretty darn good results while on my golf sojourn to Scottsdale. Of course I can't say for sure if the increased distance I was getting was all due to bumpy back, considering how the ball flies and rolls in the hot Arizona desert vs. my regular stomping grounds (cold, wet, sea-level British Columbia) but I definitely did feel a lot more 'stableized' throughout my swing and that included being more able to maintain my spine angle/posture, the inability of which to do consistently being just one of my swing faults.

So, kudos to you, art, for coming up with bumpy back (which in answer to your question I think should simply remain bumpy back) and my apologies for screwing up your back story as to how you came up with that description. BTW, I also sent you a pm on this topic which I'm not sure you've seen yet.

Svenster

 

[JEREMY5577]

Art,
I was having good success keeping my trail hip back and just firing the arms, but if you hold back the trail hip while firing the lead hip there is some feeling of separation there and it is very powerful. If the intent is to create that separation it seems to be for me the only way I can consciously lead with the hips (or left hip only in this case) and not out race my arms. Am I seeing this correctly? I hope so because I'm tearing the cover off that mofoe!

 

[swingeasttowest]

Art,
I was having good success keeping my trail hip back and just firing the arms, but if you hold back the trail hip while firing the lead hip there is some feeling of separation there and it is very powerful. If the intent is to create that separation it seems to be for me the only way I can consciously lead with the hips (or left hip only in this case) and not out race my arms. Am I seeing this correctly? I hope so because I'm tearing the cover off that mofoe!

It would seem to me that by pre-turning the trail hip it at set-up, would help guide you during the backswing. Meaning that it sets a "track" for where the arms go..............

 

[solarbear]

I have used a preset hip forever.

The Cmotion guys all use the diagonal stance with good results. Seeing Lee Comeaux destroy a ball is a thing of beauty.