Calling Mandrin

[mandrin]

Mandrin, Bronco Billy likes to respond in the post headers and not in the post itself.

Jim,

I am quite aware.

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin,

Bronco Billy likes to respond in the post headers and not in the post itself.

He asked "Do You Believe Braking(Slowing of Hands) is Necessary for a Release to Occur? Thanks."

Jim,

Analysis shows that release occurs concurrently with a slowing down of the hands, notwithstanding the golfer striving to keep on going with a full time effort through impact.

Striving with all your might for the maximum 'arms' torque to occur through impact has the effect of delaying release and preventing maximum possible clubhead to be obtained at impact.

With all this is woven in the all important matter of obtaining timely correct impact alignments and path for the clubhead through impact.

There is no easy straight forward formula which separates the swing in which one inputs maximum effort from one where one strives for optimum efficiency.

It is quite feasible that one golfer produces maximum ball carry striving for maximum efficiency and yet another by actually going full out.

It is always interesting and useful to look for other opinions, such as for instance the well known and respected late Prof. Theodore P. Jorgensen (The Physics Of Golf ).

“The rotation of the club in the plane of the swing produces a force by the club on the hands of the golfer's hands that slow down the hands even when the the golfer is trying to move them with ever increasing speed”

 

[Bronco Billy]

Thanks Mandrin.. So It's an Effect and NOT a Cause.. Some Have This Ass BackWards...

Jim,

Analysis shows that release occurs concurrently with a slowing down of the hands, notwithstanding the golfer striving to keep on going with a full time effort through impact.

Striving with all your might for the maximum 'arms' torque to occur through impact has the effect of delaying release and preventing maximum possible clubhead to be obtained at impact.

With all this is woven in the all important matter of obtaining timely correct impact alignments and path for the clubhead through impact.

There is no easy straight forward formula which separates the swing in which one inputs maximum effort from one where one strives for optimum efficiency.

It is quite feasible that one golfer produces maximum ball carry striving for maximum efficiency and yet another by actually going full out.

It is always interesting and useful to look for other opinions, such as for instance the well known and respected late Prof. Theodore P. Jorgensen (The Physics Of Golf ).

“The rotation of the club in the plane of the swing produces a force by the club on the hands of the golfer's hands that slow down the hands even when the the golfer is trying to move them with ever increasing speed”

.

 

[mandrin]

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[niblick1]

I know how you feel, Mandrin.

Sometimes, the interest just isn't there.

When I sang, the more people that were in the bar, and the more people paying attention to me, the better I sang.

So, here is my shot at Jon (libro's) question.

From the top you use PULLING FORCE, from the ground up as you move toward the ground somewhat.

As the shaft gets to VERTICAL for the last time pre-impact, you start adding PUSHING FORCE with the right arm and the wrists and hands.

As you come "out of the ground" and pull away from the ball somewhat, you use this opposing force to stop as many components as you can, as fast as you can, as near to impact as you can.

How did I do?

Brian - when you say "this opposing force" what force do you mean?

 

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

Jon,

Intuitively I feel that more detailed measurements of golf swings will not straight forwardly lead to clarity. Perhaps even more confusion before the dust settles. For instance, Dr. Nesbit claims to measure acceleration of the hands of pros during impact but Dr. Grober's measurements don't agree, actually measuring deceleration.

There are kind of two approaches. Simplification to the bare essentials and analyzing the swing with simple double or triple pendulum mathematical models or an approach such as by Dr. Nesbit, making extensive measurements and applying inverse dynamics using sophisticated models.

I have to dig into this to quantify it, which takes time, but I do believe that an efficient swing really consists of two consecutive parts, a active phase (yang) followed by a more passive phase (yin). Efficient implying that for a given amount of work expended by the golfer he gets the maximum possible amount of kinetic energy into the clubhead. However this does not necessarily imply that an efficient swing produces maximum possible clubhead speed for a particular golfer.

Mandrin,

At what point in the downswing do you think the yang part should become yin?

Thanks

 

[mandrin]

Thanks for the information. I will be looking forward to the double pendulum model and equation you are working on.

libro,

You will find here linked some information I put together on the role of the wrist torque in the down swing. It conforms the advice often given to novice golfers to be passive with the hands/wrists in the down swing. Early release and poor contact are likely to occur when using a positive torque. For many amateurs it is probably better to strive actually for a bit of negative wrist torque - giving a crisper, superior impact and even a bit higher clubhead impact speed. Golf is truly a game of paradoxes. A positive wrist torque leads to increased clubhead impact speed only when applied close to impact. Hence it has to be timed correctly and be very vigorous to have a noticeable effect.

 

[Jon Hardesty]

Mandrin, that is exactly the kind of information that I was looking for and I think that many of the forum members can appreciate the value of this kind of information!

Thanks for putting in the time on this subject.

Bravo!!!

 

[Tball88]

This is a very interesting read and somewhat reminds me of JImmy Ballards ideas around and inward and outward force.

Anyway, when discussing wrist torque, how is it being defined?

Is it the rolling of the bent right wrist , or is it an unbending right wrist?

 

[Bronco Billy]

Double Pendulum and Iron Byron are left Armed Models of the "Real Thing"...

This is a very interesting read and somewhat reminds me of JImmy Ballards ideas around and inward and outward force.

Anyway, when discussing wrist torque, how is it being defined?

Is it the rolling of the bent right wrist , or is it an unbending right wrist?

.

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin, that is exactly the kind of information that I was looking for and I think that many of the forum members can appreciate the value of this kind of information!

Thanks for putting in the time on this subject.

Bravo!!!

libro,

I do appreciate your comments - it makes the time and effort spent a bit more fun.

 

[JonWil]

Mandrin,
I certainly found value and very much appreciate your posting on this subject. As always excellent.

Have a nice day with your new found 'thank you'

 

[mandrin]

This is a very interesting read and somewhat reminds me of JImmy Ballards ideas around and inward and outward force.

Anyway, when discussing wrist torque, how is it being defined?

Is it the rolling of the bent right wrist , or is it an unbending right wrist?

Tball88,

Thanks for the compliment.

The simplest form of double pendulum model for the golf swing has only two generalized coordinates, i.e., two angles. If you do want to introduce all that wrists can do as 3D motion you might be busy for a little while.

In a double pendulum model the inner segment represents neither trail nor lead arm but rather some composite arm which has its pivot somewhere between the shoulder. Strictly speaking there are no wrists but rather a simple hinge.

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin,

At what point in the downswing do you think the yang part should become yin?

Thanks

Interesting question but not easily answered since feel and real are not necessarily on the same wavelength.

To bring a glass of wine from the table to your mouth there is both acceleration and deceleration. Are you aware of these two phases? I guess not. All of our motions involve continuously acceleration and deceleration.

Your question really concerns where in a golf down swing we change from active acceleration to passive deceleration. I don’t think mathematics will help you here it is much more a matter of feel. It should not be too difficult to feel that you are exerting torque early on and than letting go.

Sometimes to educate feelings it is helpful to go to both extremes. Feel that you start gently to explode through impact, and vice versa, have a quick start and letting it coast thereafter. A simple golf swing speed measuring device is quite useful to continuously compare.

I will be doing before long something similar for the basic torque as I did for the wrist torque. So eventually you might have a more precise answer to your question.

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin,
I certainly found value and very much appreciate your posting on this subject. As always excellent.

Have a nice day with your new found 'thank you'

JonWil,

Glad you appreciated and found value in my post.

Have a nice day with your new found ‘knowledge’.

 

[DOCW3]

This is a very interesting read and somewhat reminds me of JImmy Ballards ideas around and inward and outward force.

Anyway, when discussing wrist torque, how is it being defined?

Is it the rolling of the bent right wrist , or is it an unbending right wrist?

Mandrin~ If relative, is there a comparison/contrast between Ballard's underhand shag bag toss, Hogan's "old two-hand basketball pass" and BM's underhand javelin throw?

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin~ If relative, is there a comparison/contrast between Ballard's underhand shag bag toss, Hogan's "old two-hand basketball pass" and BM's underhand javelin throw?

DOCW3

Ballard’s idea is to learn getting into a balanced athletic stance. Hogan’s move is more specifically meant to acquire a vigorous motion of both hands through impact. The underhand throwing motion should induce the trail elbow to lead the motion of the trail arm. However, I don’t see quite the connection with this thread.

 

[Guitar Hero]

Mandrin a little help please.

I know you have talked about this in earlier threads but what I witnessed today I was hoping you could explain why. I believe it has to do with many contracted muscles at impact but I would like to hear the science behind this.

A good friend who is an instructor and long ball hitter stopped by today and he was talking about how his club head at impact was only slowing down 7-10 mph with his swing and 10 to 15 mph with good players he is teaching. I set up a radar gun to measure the club head speed just after impact. Here are the readings. Club head speed at impact 121- 123. Just after impact 112 to 115.

I know science says we cannot add to impact but can we provide some kind of a solid structure or brace that has the club head slowing down less? How much should the club head slow down at impact for most golfers? Is this a trick he was pulling on me. Please explain.

 

[Zztop]

Mandrin a little help please.

I know you have talked about this in earlier threads but what I witnessed today I was hoping you could explain why. I believe it has to do with many contracted muscles at impact but I would like to hear the science behind this.

A good friend who is an instructor and long ball hitter stopped by today and he was talking about how his club head at impact was only slowing down 7-10 mph with his swing and 10 to 15 mph with good players he is teaching. I set up a radar gun to measure the club head speed just after impact. Here are the readings. Club head speed at impact 121- 123. Just after impact 112 to 115.

I know science says we cannot add to impact but can we provide some kind of a solid structure or brace that has the club head slowing down less? How much should the club head slow down at impact for most golfers? Is this a trick he was pulling on me. Please explain.

is it possible to take any golf club and make swings to make the golfball go varying distances like a seven iron 100yds. then 125yds. then 140 yds. and so on till you max out with that particular club. how is that made possible? is it with more and more physical effort, if so are we adding to impact? if not how are we accomplishing this? are we slowing down more and more or speeding up more and more?

 

[jmessner]

Interesting experiment, but the COR calculations show that the final velocity immediately after impact would be in the 80mph range for a 121 mph clubhead velocity. However, the 3-D machine measurements show that there is an immediate slowdown in club rotational velocity right after impact followed by a recovery 25-30 milliseconds later. Why the recovery? I'm guessing the golfer is still adding force(torque) to the club after impact and thus it recovers to some value which is what I guess would be measured by a radar system after impact. Some golfers may be more able to achieve a higher recovery velocity due to the nature of how they add torque to the club at the bottom of the swing. Still, per previous discussion, a recovery some 25-30 milliseconds later would do nothing to an impact lasting in the 5 millisecond range. Did you measure his ball speed? Probably around 180mph which is predicted by the "disconnected clubhead theory". Interested to hear mandrin explain it better.