Clearing my hips

[ej20]

Hold the phone there. Plenty of hickory greats, like MacDonald Smith and Sarazen had very strong grips and were very unlikely to be flippers. In fact, the high-torque shaft would seem to me to react better to drive/hold release of a strong grip players of today like Watney, Kuchar, Sadlowski, etc.

High torque shafts like hickory twist very easily and smooth swings were needed to avoid twisting or torquing the shaft too much.I see it the opposite to you.Bending the left wrist would aid in taking torque off the shaft,not the other way around.I suppose the best way to find out is to get a hickory club and test it out in the field.

I'm also pretty sure Hogan said in an interview that Jone's couldn't cure a snap hook using steel shafted clubs which may have prompted his early retirement.

As for Hogan,I have never heard he ever used hickory shafts.Steel shafts were available when Hogan was a teenager.They were invented in the late 1890's and most probably were available by 1920 or so about which time Hogan started playing golf.

 

[ej20]

Depends on the shot. Look at Freddy's release on this iron:

Good point.Left wrist will bend more if you hit a high shot like a flop.Left wrist will be flat or even arched if you hit a low "stinger".

 

[jeffy]

High torque shafts like hickory twist very easily and smooth swings were needed to avoid twisting or torquing the shaft too much.I see it the opposite to you.Bending the left wrist would aid in taking torque off the shaft,not the other way around.I suppose the best way to find out is to get a hickory club and test it out in the field.

Could be, not going to go to war over it.

I'm also pretty sure Hogan said in an interview that Jone's couldn't cure a snap hook using steel shafted clubs which may have prompted his early retirement.

I've read enough books by Jones and about Jones to be 100% convinced that is nonsense. He quit because he won the Grand Slam and competitive golf exhausted him. Remember, he was an amateur and never would have played as a pro: he was able to make a lot more money after he retired by promoting clubs for Spalding and prooducing instructional films.

As for Hogan,I have never heard he ever used hickory shafts.Steel shafts were available when Hogan was a teenager.They were invented in the late 1890's and most probably were available by 1920 or so about which time Hogan started playing golf.

Steel was not introduced until 1925 and didn't predominate until the mid-thirties. The first US Open champion to use steel shafts was Billy Burke in 1931. Hogan, Nelson and Snead were all born in 1912. Hogan and Nelson started playing using cast off clubs in the caddie yard when they were pre-teens. Snead went into the woods and cut himself a branch with a knob on one end.

 

[ej20]

Could be, not going to go to war over it.



I've read enough books by Jones and about Jones to be 100% convinced that is nonsense. He quit because he won the Grand Slam and competitive golf exhausted him. Remember, he was an amateur and never would have played as a pro: he was able to make a lot more money after he retired by promoting clubs for Spalding and prooducing instructional films.



Steel was not introduced until 1925 and didn't predominate until the mid-thirties. The first US Open champion to use steel shafts was Billy Burke in 1931. Hogan, Nelson and Snead were all born in 1912. Hogan and Nelson started playing using cast off clubs in the caddie yard when they were pre-teens. Snead went into the woods and cut himself a branch with a knob on one end.

I did say it MAY have contributed to Jone's early retirement but Hogan really did say he couldn't play with steel shafts.I will try to find that interview.

Like I said,I have never heard or seen Hogan swing a hickory club.He may have in the early years when he first started playing but he obviously switched over well before he turned pro which makes it an easier transition than if it occured when his career was already established like Jones.

 

[ej20]

Just to prove I don't make things up....

Hogan: I can’t recall the first time we met and where it was, but I played several rounds with him, not a great deal, but I played oh, three or four or five rounds with him at Augusta. I played with him the last two rounds in the Hale America Open in Chicago. I believe those were the only two places I played with him. And at that time of course he’d retired and wasn’t playing as well. Bobby, this is just my opinion, just my observation, when he went from wooden shafts to steel shafts he had less torque of course, and he’d trained himself with wooden shafts, which have the greatest torque. He was a very excellent player with wooden shafts, probably the best we’ve ever known. The record proves it. But when he got steel shafts, he didn’t get the torque and he hooked too much, I’m not criticizing, I’m just making statements of my own views. He was still a good player. Of course at that time he’d quit playing. And he was a perfect gentleman. Very easy to play with.

 

[drewyallop]

The discussion on hickory reminds me of Michael Jacobs video on clubhead deflection (forward and down) before impact. Deflection was much greater for more flexible shafts when swung at the same speed as a stiffer shaft. The implication being, I think, that pros play stiffer shafts to minimize deflection and improve accuracy.

If this is the case what would be the deflection numbers on hickory? Intuitively the deflection would be much greater. And if so, what does this say about the swing mastery of the best golfers in the hickory era?

 

[ej20]

Talk with people who play often with hickory and they will tell you it is the most unforgiving club you can imagine.Balls hit off center not only flies half the distance but way off line as well due to the excess twisting of the clubhead.

 

[jeffy]

Just to prove I don't make things up....

Hogan: I can’t recall the first time we met and where it was, but I played several rounds with him, not a great deal, but I played oh, three or four or five rounds with him at Augusta. I played with him the last two rounds in the Hale America Open in Chicago. I believe those were the only two places I played with him. And at that time of course he’d retired and wasn’t playing as well. Bobby, this is just my opinion, just my observation, when he went from wooden shafts to steel shafts he had less torque of course, and he’d trained himself with wooden shafts, which have the greatest torque. He was a very excellent player with wooden shafts, probably the best we’ve ever known. The record proves it. But when he got steel shafts, he didn’t get the torque and he hooked too much, I’m not criticizing, I’m just making statements of my own views. He was still a good player. Of course at that time he’d quit playing. And he was a perfect gentleman. Very easy to play with.

What you posted was:

"Hogan said that Bobby Jones could never make the transition.His release was too "flicky" which was great with hickory but he hooked like crap with steel."

And:

"I'm also pretty sure Hogan said in an interview that Jone's couldn't cure a snap hook using steel shafted clubs which may have prompted his early retirement."

Hogan said:

"But when he got steel shafts, he didn’t get the torque and he hooked too much, I’m not criticizing, I’m just making statements of my own views."

Spoken like a man who lived in fear of a hook!

 

[ej20]

What you posted was:

"Hogan said that Bobby Jones could never make the transition.His release was too "flicky" which was great with hickory but he hooked like crap with steel."

And:

"I'm also pretty sure Hogan said in an interview that Jone's couldn't cure a snap hook using steel shafted clubs which may have prompted his early retirement."

Hogan said:

"But when he got steel shafts, he didn’t get the torque and he hooked too much, I’m not criticizing, I’m just making statements of my own views."

Spoken like a man who lived in fear of a hook!

I won't go tit for tat with you.Sure you can say I didn't quote Hogan word for word,however the gist of what Hogan said was that Jone's had trouble making the transition which was mainly my point.His "flicky" release was my guess at why he had trouble.

 

[wulsy]

The discussion on hickory reminds me of Michael Jacobs video on clubhead deflection (forward and down) before impact. Deflection was much greater for more flexible shafts when swung at the same speed as a stiffer shaft. The implication being, I think, that pros play stiffer shafts to minimize deflection and improve accuracy.

If this is the case what would be the deflection numbers on hickory? Intuitively the deflection would be much greater. And if so, what does this say about the swing mastery of the best golfers in the hickory era?

I'd guess that nobody at this time knows the deflection numbers with hickory. Would be possible to measure though.

Methinks that it would deflect very DIFFERENTLY, and would not produce simply MORE of the same deflection(s).

JMHO as a nice pleasant polite happy go lucky kinda guy.

 

[birly-shirly]

[..]JMHO as a nice pleasant polite happy go lucky kinda guy.

Good to see you back on the medication, Wulsy.

 

[wulsy]

All just a question of the dosage, me old codge.

 

[birly-shirly]

So true. Mine's a double.

 

[DCgolf]

Seems like I heard similar thoughts expressed by Nelson about Jones? Just an opinion but I think Jones was done. Finished. Never really liked the feeling of tournament golf, and after the pressure of the slam, he just couldn't take it any more. Loved his bourbon and neededit after the big ones! Think about how little professionals made in those days compared to attorneys; and he could go back to playing East Lake with his buddies on the weekend. I really think Jones always thought of golf as an avocation. But my swing two cents is this: why does less torque steel promote hooking?