Club Bounce at Top: How do you stop it?

[kc8kir]

Noticed a really big problem yesterday. Was practicing the swing with a mirror and noticed that at the top of my swing, especially with long clubs, I have a distinct bounce of the club, often causing it to pass parallel. My arms aren't changing positions, it's just the weight and momentum of the club adding additional wrist flex (I guess have very flexible wrists). It is not controlled however, and varies shot to shot.

I know this is a huge swing fault and could be having a huge impact on the success of my swing. With short clubs I can compensate, but with long clubs... look out! The bounce only encourages an OTT throw-away move as the body reacts to the jerk in club motion.

Question is, how do I stop it?

I checked my grip, and I'm not losing hold on the club. No slippage.

I tried taking the club back really feeling like I held some pressure in my wrists and didn't allow them to really cock at the top. This helped a little, but was very difficult.

I experimented with a slower backswing, but found only if it was painfully slow did it eliminate the bounce.

I tried increasing grip pressure as the club reached the top. Didn't really do anything but add tension to the swing.

This is really unnerving. It's like I can't physically hold the wrist angle at the top without consciously tensing the wrists. If I take a 3/4 swing, the club hinges itself beyond 90 relative to the lead arm.

Anyone have suggestions on how to stabilize the backswing so I can start my downswing from a more consistent position. Right now the long clubs feel different with every swing as a result of this "bounce".

One last thing, seperate but related issue. If attaining a flat left wrist at the top means the club face now points to the sky (shut position, and it takes a lot of strength to hold), is that ok? Otherwise, my wrist is partially cupped, but the club face lines up with my forearm. This occurs whether I strengthen or weaken the left hand on the club (unless I go totally weak, with thumb on top of the shaft).

Thanks for the help!

 

[Guitar Hero]

Noticed a really big problem yesterday. Was practicing the swing with a mirror and noticed that at the top of my swing, especially with long clubs, I have a distinct bounce of the club, often causing it to pass parallel. My arms aren't changing positions, it's just the weight and momentum of the club adding additional wrist flex (I guess have very flexible wrists). It is not controlled however, and varies shot to shot.

I know this is a huge swing fault and could be having a huge impact on the success of my swing. With short clubs I can compensate, but with long clubs... look out! The bounce only encourages an OTT throw-away move as the body reacts to the jerk in club motion.

Question is, how do I stop it?

I checked my grip, and I'm not losing hold on the club. No slippage.

I tried taking the club back really feeling like I held some pressure in my wrists and didn't allow them to really cock at the top. This helped a little, but was very difficult.

I experimented with a slower backswing, but found only if it was painfully slow did it eliminate the bounce.

I tried increasing grip pressure as the club reached the top. Didn't really do anything but add tension to the swing.

This is really unnerving. It's like I can't physically hold the wrist angle at the top without consciously tensing the wrists. If I take a 3/4 swing, the club hinges itself beyond 90 relative to the lead arm.

Anyone have suggestions on how to stabilize the backswing so I can start my downswing from a more consistent position. Right now the long clubs feel different with every swing as a result of this "bounce".

One last thing, seperate but related issue. If attaining a flat left wrist at the top means the club face now points to the sky (shut position, and it takes a lot of strength to hold), is that ok? Otherwise, my wrist is partially cupped, but the club face lines up with my forearm. This occurs whether I strengthen or weaken the left hand on the club (unless I go totally weak, with thumb on top of the shaft).

Thanks for the help!

Smooth out you back swing to down swing transition.

 

[pecky987]

Noticed a really big problem yesterday. Was practicing the swing with a mirror and noticed that at the top of my swing, especially with long clubs, I have a distinct bounce of the club, often causing it to pass parallel. My arms aren't changing positions, it's just the weight and momentum of the club adding additional wrist flex (I guess have very flexible wrists). It is not controlled however, and varies shot to shot.

I know this is a huge swing fault and could be having a huge impact on the success of my swing. With short clubs I can compensate, but with long clubs... look out! The bounce only encourages an OTT throw-away move as the body reacts to the jerk in club motion.

Question is, how do I stop it?

I checked my grip, and I'm not losing hold on the club. No slippage.

I tried taking the club back really feeling like I held some pressure in my wrists and didn't allow them to really cock at the top. This helped a little, but was very difficult.

I experimented with a slower backswing, but found only if it was painfully slow did it eliminate the bounce.

I tried increasing grip pressure as the club reached the top. Didn't really do anything but add tension to the swing.

This is really unnerving. It's like I can't physically hold the wrist angle at the top without consciously tensing the wrists. If I take a 3/4 swing, the club hinges itself beyond 90 relative to the lead arm.

Anyone have suggestions on how to stabilize the backswing so I can start my downswing from a more consistent position. Right now the long clubs feel different with every swing as a result of this "bounce".

One last thing, seperate but related issue. If attaining a flat left wrist at the top means the club face now points to the sky (shut position, and it takes a lot of strength to hold), is that ok? Otherwise, my wrist is partially cupped, but the club face lines up with my forearm. This occurs whether I strengthen or weaken the left hand on the club (unless I go totally weak, with thumb on top of the shaft).

Thanks for the help!

you seem to think this club "bounce" is a bad thing. on the contrary, i believe if more people could implement this the better off they'd be

this "bounce" you describe is merely the weight of the club taking over as you change directions. you are holding the grip end. let the clubhead do what it wants. if you move your hands in the correct way, the clubhead will go in the right place.

now if you are slicing then it could be another matter. slicers who have clubface issues can make the problem worse as this emphasied stressing of the shaft can open the face even more.

watch never slice again, learn to twistway to the top, and hold the twist into the downsing, lag the sweetspot, tilt your tea-cup, hit the inside of the ball and voila!

btw this will also answr your question on flat left wrist

 

[kc8kir]

I tend to hook the short irons, hit the mid irons straight, and slice the long clubs. I understand what you mean about it helping some golfers, but for my swing, the bounce at the top is probably not helping. It results in me feeling like the club is out of control.

 

[suns11111]

got a video on youtube for us?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

There's no way to get rid of that or any need too. You'd be chasing a ghost forever; now with what you said about the short/mid/long clubs it sounds like you are an open face flipper. But i'd need video to confirm that

 

[kc8kir]

Video huh?

I'll try to get some video up then. Front and down the line I presume?

I do think about open the clubface, close the clubface during the swing (that's just how I was taught to square the club - toe up to toe up), but I do try to pronate a la Five Lessons. Some days it works like magic, some days it doesn't.

Hopefully we can figure out if I should look at "Confessions of a Former Flipper" or "Never Slice Again". From what I gather, the former may be more towards my root problem.

 

[welshdentist]

By no means a sales guy but watch all of the videos to give you a rounded view, and for the web download prices, not too expensive.

 

[kc8kir]

Video of the swing on youtube:

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4Skl_kKLyiE"> </param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4Skl_kKLyiE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"> </embed> </object>

Already see many things I don't like, but I'm gonna leave analysis up to brian and the other instructors here on the board. Some really wierd compensations going on, and I don't see how I hit the ball as far as I do (distances on the video comments, actual measured not imagined ).

For reference, those swings were about 80% power, and yes, my car was sitting on a slope, so I am actually standing level but the camera is tilted (sorry).

If you guys need it slowed down, I can do that. Original is at 30FPS, so not the greatest slow motion captures.

BTW, I wasn't trying to restrain the wrists at all in these swings. Just my normal grooved motion.

Oh we have work to do...

 

[kc8kir]

Can't resist a few comments

Ok so some thoughts. That was the first time I have seen my swing on video, so it was a good shock. Had to look in the mirror a few times and make sure I was still me. Lol.

Absolute biggest thing that worries me is the severe inside takeaway looping up to the cross the line top and cupped wrist. No wonder I can't get the wrist near flat. It's impossible with that backswing approach from below. My backswing doesn't setup my downswing in the least.

From the front-on views, the clubface is obviously open on the 4W at impact (left hand logo facing the camera). The backswing looping gets worse with the longer club.

I am honestly suprised that I can make the recovery compensations from that backswing and put the clubhead on the ball! The downswing has the club bisecting my forearms and returning onto some sort of plane, but I have to work really hard with the hands to square the face.

I would think first thing to fix is that loopy inside takeaway (how?). I'm practically a reverse Jim Fuyrk at this point.

Feel versus real... oh so different...

 

[lookingtolearn]

I'll give a few quick thoughts:

There's nothing wrong with an inside takeaway and an across the line position at the top. The problem, I think, is the "in" isn't coming from your pivot, which leads to a lot of compensations.

Try standing a little more away from the ball with a little more "bend-over."
Then, use your body/pivot to get the hands inside.

 

[kc8kir]

Check out the right elbow on the takeaway. Looks like by keeping it so tucked to the body (not something I am trying to do, but I used to do the right armpit glove drill to keep away from a flying right elbow) is sucking the club inside. Combine that inside looping with the left arm then pushing the club behind the chest, and I've got a Raymond Floyd move going on there. I'd be ok, maybe, if I stopped the club before it crossed the line so much (I agree that a little across the line is fine, but that movement is causing my left wrist to cup too much). Once the wrist is so cupped, my downswing puts the shaft almost vertical at first, then I have to really work the hands to redirect the club back to the shaft plane and get to impact.

Maybe I should let that right elbow go, and stop worrying so much about a 'flying elbow'? See if that gets me to allow the club to work up more infront of the chest (still inside, but not so much stuck behind).

Just an idea.

Brian, if you get a chance, I'd really appreciate a quick take on the problem. Thanks!

 

[thefuture37]

your lead arm is bending during your transition and then straightening again shortly after to give you that bouncy look. whether or not it is a good or bad thing i dont know.

 

[kc8kir]

Yeah I noticed that too. Right now I am thinking because the club is whipping from inside and behind so much, it's pulling the left arm past where I can keep it straight at the top (also causing extra cupping and across the line). Then on the transition down, you see that bend disappear as I pull with the left arm through impact.

Still not sure if I'm flipping or sweeping.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

No offense but you will swing different when you are actually hitting a ball; everyone does. Main thing i see is that your pivot needs some work; the inside takeaway and slight over the top of that inside takeaway down isn't a bad thing. Sam Snead had that look and he did just fine

IMO your swing is too armsy and doesn't include enough pivot which can lead to very inconsistent results

 

[kc8kir]

Okay. Not sure exactly what you are pointing out with the pivot as far as what to work on though.

In regards to the ball affect, yes I agree. Next shots will be at the range. However, I did place tee's in the ground so I was aiming to clip specific targets and thereby attempt to square the clubface (reference Harvey Penick's Little Red Book). So the swing may not be as different as you might think.

Could you expound on the pivot issue? What about the wrist cupping and transition?

Might be asking too much, and if so, I apologize.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

A lot of your arm and other issues are centered around your pivot with a poor pivot (movement of the body/hips) the arms have to do the majority of the work which isn't always a good thing.

 

[kc8kir]

What would you suggest? NSA, CFF, SD? Is there a particular pattern I should start with given my current swing? Which video provides the most guidance on performing a correct pivot?

 

[pecky987]

What would you suggest? NSA, CFF, SD? Is there a particular pattern I should start with given my current swing? Which video provides the most guidance on performing a correct pivot?

first of all, get flipper, this will help improve your pivot and help you learn to get a flat left wrist.

then, now you have nice looking set of impact hands, and your hitting everything to the right because the flat left wrist has exosed your underlying open clubface issue, get NSA. learn to lag the sweetspot and get a wedding ring up swivel.

easy as

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

He has a very soft-drawish swing already, i think soft-draw with just watching flipper would be good. He doesn't need to implement all the ideas from flipper but a lot of them would help. NSA is too different from what he does now, soft draw would be better