Club Path - Clubhead Speed

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cwdlaw223

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Has anyone found that the faster the clubhead speed the more likely it is to have a path that's out to in? (I'm right handed).

I don't know if this is from my pattern, but when I was hitting balls on Flightscope tonight and noticed the faster my clubhead speed the more my path was out to in.
 
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Robbierob99

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I've noticed that sometimes, only sometimes, "when I try to swing hard" I'll tug early and get out to in, speed generally goes up also, but its still a bad swing.

WIND, if its left to right (I'm righty), now, that can make me swing slightly more out to in often. Guess its a subconscious compensation. I've got to remind myself that making sure I'm I-O & playing more of a draw is generally the better way for me to manage that wind.
 
tongzilla

tongzilla

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Yes I have found something similar with my swing too...

We need some 3D studies in this area, because there are so many parts to look at and its relationship to the target line can be confusing...for example, I feel like my shoulders and hips are open at impact, and my hand path is outside in from release onwards...but clubhead path can still be straight or a bit inside out...would be interesting to see 3D images of all these paths. The corollary is that just because your clubhead path is outside in does not necessarily mean you need to start trying to do everything more inside out (e.g. more square hips/shoulders in downswing, more inside out hand path, dropping hands down vertically at transition,…), it could mean you just need more reverse tumble earlier :eek:
 
Dariusz J.

Dariusz J.

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My attempt to explain the phenomenon, for what it's worth -- the ball lies on the ground; keeping the difference angle between the direction where clubhead mass is travelling with gravity vector (vertical at 90* angle to the ground) as small as possible is crucial here. If the goal is to destroy the ball with the most powerful hit (no matter where it would go or if it goes anywhere) one would just allign the direction of the destroying mass (clubhead or axehead) with the gravity and chop at the ball from above the head straigtly down like with an axe.
However, since the ball is going to fly somewhere at the target and one cannot align it the above way (it must be struck not only downward because it won't fly anywhere) the goal still remains to hit it hard. Thus, the more OTT and steep is the motion the more powerful it usually is (don't confuse it with how far the ball would go, I mean only the force thrown at the object lying on the ground will be the highest). BTW, that's why 99% of beginners are heavy OTTers for whom the most important goal is to hit the ball as hard as possible. Subconscious mind rarely makes errors.

Cheers
 
drewyallop

drewyallop

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Dariusz J. said:
My attempt to explain the phenomenon, for what it's worth -- the ball lies on the ground; keeping the difference angle between the direction where clubhead mass is travelling with gravity vector (vertical at 90* angle to the ground) as small as possible is crucial here. If the goal is to destroy the ball with the most powerful hit (no matter where it would go or if it goes anywhere) one would just allign the direction of the destroying mass (clubhead or axehead) with the gravity and chop at the ball from above the head straigtly down like with an axe.
However, since the ball is going to fly somewhere at the target and one cannot align it the above way (it must be struck not only downward because it won't fly anywhere) the goal still remains to hit it hard. Thus, the more OTT and steep is the motion the more powerful it usually is (don't confuse it with how far the ball would go, I mean only the force thrown at the object lying on the ground will be the highest). BTW, that's why 99% of beginners are heavy OTTers for whom the most important goal is to hit the ball as hard as possible. Subconscious mind rarely makes errors.

Cheers
Click to expand...

I think this is an important insight D. I wanted to "axe" the ball for most of my golfing life. It feels powerful and is instinctive. But sadly the golf swing is not instinctive. When BM showed me where my hands should be at club last parallel I could not believe it. It seemed so non-intuitive and weak. It has taken some time to unlearn the instincts and trust that you can generate almost effortless power from that most unlikely position.
 
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cwdlaw223

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70346E1C-0EF3-481F-AFCC-F98570900D0E-537-000000FD2D3A2675.jpg


I nutted this shot with my 8 iron. This was taken indoors so the distance might be a little long (the total distance was long because the setting was a hard surface). I didn't take a picture of the rest of the metrics. I hit down on this 8 iron about 6* (I know that's steep). I had a fair amount of paths last night to the left. The harder I would swing the more the path would go to the left.
 
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cwdlaw223

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Dariusz J. said:
My attempt to explain the phenomenon, for what it's worth -- the ball lies on the ground; keeping the difference angle between the direction where clubhead mass is travelling with gravity vector (vertical at 90* angle to the ground) as small as possible is crucial here. If the goal is to destroy the ball with the most powerful hit (no matter where it would go or if it goes anywhere) one would just allign the direction of the destroying mass (clubhead or axehead) with the gravity and chop at the ball from above the head straigtly down like with an axe.
However, since the ball is going to fly somewhere at the target and one cannot align it the above way (it must be struck not only downward because it won't fly anywhere) the goal still remains to hit it hard. Thus, the more OTT and steep is the motion the more powerful it usually is (don't confuse it with how far the ball would go, I mean only the force thrown at the object lying on the ground will be the highest). BTW, that's why 99% of beginners are heavy OTTers for whom the most important goal is to hit the ball as hard as possible. Subconscious mind rarely makes errors.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Dariusz -

This was very helpful. My mind wants that "strong feeling" and I go OTT a little.
 
Dariusz J.

Dariusz J.

New member
drewyallop said:
I think this is an important insight D. I wanted to "axe" the ball for most of my golfing life. It feels powerful and is instinctive. But sadly the golf swing is not instinctive. When BM showed me where my hands should be at club last parallel I could not believe it. It seemed so non-intuitive and weak. It has taken some time to unlearn the instincts and trust that you can generate almost effortless power from that most unlikely position.
Click to expand...

Well, perhaps, but this was the best I could think of while analyzing how to automate = build a subconscious-friendly motion that would work well. Hence such concepts as diagonal stance that, among others, enhance a fuller pivot as well as eliminates to a big degree hitting from the outside despite even slight OTT.
If we remember discussions about Cotton and his release and we concluded that some ingnorant people would call his action as flipping we can and we should glorify Snead with his OTT action -- the best most natural swing of all times bringing the most tour victories through 6 decades. I wonder how many instructors would try to correct also his action LOL.

cwdlaw223 said:
Dariusz -

This was very helpful. My mind wants that "strong feeling" and I go OTT a little.
Click to expand...

Have you tried to place your feet more diagonally (as both Hogan and Snead did) and then to kill the ball ? I wonder if it changes something. :)

Cheers
 
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art

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cwdlaw223 said:
Could be, but the shot was relatively straight (left a little).

I was hoping for some general discussion about forces and torques and what's happening to the path down near impact as opposed to my swing per se.
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Dear cwdlaw,

Thanks for showing the FlightScope results, to me they ALMOST show that somehow you turned that 8 iron into nearly a driver, and at least a fairway wood. For instance, the 18 degree launch angle, 95 mph club head speed and only 3090 rpm backspin rate are the envy of many of us super-seniors 'on the tee'.

As for your desire for forces, torque and paths effects when trying to tear the cover off the ball, I can assure you the upper body takes over from the desire to hit harder and longer, and that's where the problem begins in destroying any chance for lower body dynamic balance and stability margin.

On the forces side, the medical research suggests that to maintain a flexed upper body position during the downswing, stability and position/angle can be maintained for only a force of about 40 pounds while the centripetal forces you develop from the rotation of your arms, shoulders and torso probably exceed 100 pounds during most of the downswing, especially at the angular velocities you develop.

I can just suggest for you and others to try to contain/limit the OTT consequences of trying to swing harder, aside from BBKIB, you MUST also become at least 1 inch shorter, maybe 2 inches at the end of your set-up, preferably with a little 'lordosis', and your fanny back too. These changes will significantly INCREASE your stability, minimize and maybe eliminate involuntary reflex actions, and give your standard swing paths and positions a chance to return to normal.

Sincerely,
art
 
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cwdlaw223

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art -

Good things to think about. (I only put up the good shots! :D F Scope Prime indoors. I'm not 100% sure about the numbers. I prefer Tman. Maybe the X2 is better than F Scope Prime. Don't know).
 
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