clubface control is very elusive...

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dannyc

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allright gang. had a long session at the range today, and i just can't get over how important and how elusive clubface control is.
with all the great knowledge i get on this forum regarding the dplane and real ball flight laws, i went out today to try to get some work done.
what occurred to me was that, from what i can gather, my path seems just fine, but clubface control is the killer.
for example, let's say i set out to hit a 3 yard draw. if i had 3 balls, i could hit one perfect, one huge push fade, and one overcooked draw. all because of the clubface!
first one, clubface just about perfect. second one, clubface several degrees open, but when combined with my path (out to in on purpose b/c i am trying to play a draw) super ugly result! like, whoa wrong fairway type stuff. last one, clubface a little closed relative to the target, but b/c i am swinging in to out...ugly.

so, i guess the point of this thread is - does anyone have any procedures, etc. that they have used to get the clubface to look where they want it to, on a more consistent basis?
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
A whole lot of practice LOL. Short game practice works well and it transfer over to possibly a 7 iron but after that the low gets low enough to where you need more control and it's just practice. My preferred pattern is to swing as little to in to out as possible; you can still draw or fade it too. People tend to "over do" the in/out to get the draw.
 
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dannyc

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Jim Kobylinski said:
A whole lot of practice LOL. Short game practice works well and it transfer over to possibly a 7 iron but after that the low gets low enough to where you need more control and it's just practice.
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yeah i have been working on controlling the face in my short game, with some success. and it has transfered over to longer shots, as you said...just not as much as i would like it to!

Jim Kobylinski said:
My preferred pattern is to swing as little to in to out as possible; you can still draw or fade it too. People tend to "over do" the in/out to get the draw.
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i guess when i was practicing today, when i first set out to hit the 3 yard draw, i'd get the ball started 3 yards right, but it would just stay there. that's why i started to try to swing more right to hit the draw. is that not the right thing to do?
thanks
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
dannyc said:
i guess when i was practicing today, when i first set out to hit the 3 yard draw, i'd get the ball started 3 yards right, but it would just stay there. that's why i started to try to swing more right to hit the draw. is that not the right thing to do?
thanks
Click to expand...

No that would be wrong; essentially your path was ok but your face was "square" to the path it traveled on and thus it pushed. You have tried to continue on the same path but with a slightly less open at impact.
 
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dannyc

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Jim Kobylinski said:
No that would be wrong; essentially your path was ok but your face was "square" to the path it traveled on and thus it pushed. You have tried to continue on the same path but with a slightly less open at impact.
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right, but that would have the clubface and ball (if executed correctly) starting at the target, then drawing left of it.
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

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I was thinking and I suspect a lot of pros learned simply by monitoring the clubface and trying to manipulate the ball with it.

What I mean is.....I think these players basically envision and "feel" impact (clubface on ball and hand/body awareness) and how what they do with the face affects the ball. (+ adjusting from actual contact and results) Maybe even moreso with pitches and hitting shots. A vague sense of contact and how to manipulate it to get a result. A little luck and talent starting out and they happen to figure out how to play.

"Figure out how to put this dumb guy on that dumb guy." -making sense of Moe Norman

"When I was really on I could freeze impact as a position in my mind." (something like that) -Johnny Miller

"Clubface control separates pros from everyone else." (something like that) -BRIAN

...

A vague sense, image, feel of the clubface manipulating the ball and how to fit that to a desired flight.

I presume they still do it a lot when they are "programming" themselves in pre-shot.

Especially on "non-stock" and highly "feel-based" (distance and flight) shots I often have thought there was some sort of disconnect if I just focused on the target or the ballflight alone. I think you've gotta get comfortable with guesstimating to some degree though. (certain shots more than others)
 
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birdie_man

birdie_man

New
I was watching Anthony Kim last night and I got to thinking of all this.

I also noticed he holds the club in his right hand a lot and addresses the ball with his right hand only and then adds the left. (to the club)

Sergio does this a lot too.

Is there anything in this or is it just what it is?

...

I cannot really relate to it at the moment. (I don't do it)
 
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dannyc

New
birdie_man said:
I was watching Anthony Kim last night and I got to thinking of all this.

I also noticed he holds the club in his right hand a lot and addresses the ball with his right hand only and then adds the left. (to the club)

Sergio does this a lot too.

Is there anything in this or is it just what it is?

...

I cannot really relate to it at the moment. (I don't do it)
Click to expand...

hmmm, yeah i dunno if it has to with controlling the clubface or not, but i think i remember brian mentioning this in the NHA pattern as a way to help prevent the right shoulder from getting too low at setup (hookers tend to set up this way to get to the inside of the ball).
 
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savydan

New
Is there a pattern out there that requires less hand/arm manipulation to achieve a square face (or optimal D-plane characteristics in '09 terminology)?
 
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dbl

New
Angeled swinging would do the trick. Keep the face cutting through the plane and use a big pivot. Don't know about any optimality for D Plane issues, but I found I could hit it straight or draw or fade. So that's might vote for the least hand action to achieve a square face.
 
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dannyc

New
dbl said:
Angeled swinging would do the trick. Keep the face cutting through the plane and use a big pivot. Don't know about any optimality for D Plane issues, but I found I could hit it straight or draw or fade. So that's might vote for the least hand action to achieve a square face.
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ever since i discovered this site, i have often wondered why so many teachers teach a face that lays "on the plane" for every golfer...and what advantages a lot of clubface rotation is supposed to give a golfer.
 
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fronesis

New
dannyc said:
ever since i discovered this site, i have often wondered why so many teachers teach a face that lays "on the plane" for every golfer...and what advantages a lot of clubface rotation is supposed to give a golfer.
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Rotation is one of the power accumulators, so that's one advantage.

But there are a lot of disadvanatages as well, especially for golfers who have clubface control issues or problems squaring the clubface - and that's a large group of golfers. For them, less rotaton can be a good things, and surely that's one of the keys to the NSA pattern.
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
IMO people who struggle with face rotation through the ball either have clubface issues or clubpath isssues.

When either one of those aren't "close" to where they need to be you will "feel" a lot of hand manipulation. However, as the path and face gets better you really shouldn't feel any and the clubface will square up on it's on.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
The Answer Manz Strikes Again!!

dannyc said:
bold by BManz...I just can't get over how important and how elusive clubface control is...from what I can gather, my path seems just fine, but clubface control is the killer.

For example, let's say I set out to hit a 3 yard draw. If I had 3 balls, I could hit one perfect, one huge push fade, and one overcooked draw. all because of the clubface!
Click to expand...

Stop right there.

Impossible.

You problem is path.

PATH.

Not clubface.

Only way to get those shots in a group.

For example:
Your PLANE LINE is 3° inside-out, you hit down 5°,
so your path is:

6° inside-out with a 6-iron

6° inside-out with a 3° open face is a nice draw at the target.

6° inside-out with a 8° open face is a push-fade

6° inside-out with a 1° open face is start-just-to-the-right hook that misses the target way, way left!

​
Sounds like a clubface problem, huh?

Not so fast my little friend! :D

You see, when you learn to get your path closer to ZERO, clubface control is MUCH easier.

And after watching a bunch of good players on TrackMan, I have a new mantra:


If your are a average to below average golfer (handicap 10 or higher) and you are having trouble improving...

You have a Clubface problem.




If your are a better than average golfer without a large left-to-right ball flight (single digit handicap or lower) and you are having trouble improving...

You have a Clubhead Path problem.

​
Mark that down, babe. :cool:
 
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burners

New
Unless I'm mistaken, I think I'm hearing him say "learn to play a straight ball".

Zero the path, and know it's going to be little left, a little right, or in the hole?
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
burners said:
Unless I'm mistaken, I think I'm hearing him say "learn to play a straight ball".

Zero the path, and know it's going to be little left, a little right, or in the hole?
Click to expand...

At the "good player" level....

Absolutely!

But...

Until a couple of years ago, NOBODY KNEW HOW.
 
Steve Greffen

Steve Greffen

New
Brian Manzella said:
Until a couple of years ago, NOBODY KNEW HOW.
Click to expand...

So how do you achieve this?? ZERO out the path?? Any specific drills or backswing downswing feels? Simply swinging more left?

This is great too because I have been teaching a lot of poor players working on that clubface and it has been helpful but better players (especially those with a noticeable downswing coming from the inside) have been hooking or sweeping draw or even push straight right. Completely makes sense.

Thanks Brian,

Steve
 
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