clubfitting: longer shaft for irons necessary?

[mjstrong]

Grah,

I have fit really tall guys with off the rack clubs (too short for them) that will make a swing with longer clubs that feels much "simpler" to them, and allows them to make a more consistent swing. So, there are instances where longer clubs can result in more accuracy. Otherwise, we'd all look like Robert Garigus (28.5" flatstick) does when he putts.

The proper fit is the important thing. There are probably as many bad fitters out there as there are bad teachers. I don't consider myself an expert fitter, btw, but do feel like I know where my limitations are. Hopefully that prevents me from being one of those bad fitters.

Have you ever been through a first class fitting? Maye it would change your mind.

I think of it this way: skill, talent, mechanics, etc. will be a major factor in determining the range of the quality of your golf. A proper fit set can help maximize your potential within that range. No magic bullet, but helpful nonetheless.

 

[grahler]

MJ,
Good stuff man. Like I said I only know from what sample size I have and I am sure an experienced fitter knows more.
I am six foot and average build anymore (gettin old sucks) and I am not excessively flat or steep so I can hit most stock stuff.
I think theres a lot to be said also for fitting to a goal where if a guy is working on something for whatever reason he may not want clubs that exactly fit his current move-maybe he's trying to get flatter so he wants a flatter lie than is optimum for his current move in order to help him in his quest.
I got fit at a very nice facility last year on Trackman while seeing ballflight since it was outside and I hit a lot of clubs.
I didn't see major changes with anything other than feel. I cannot feel anything on a certain type of club and I find it disoncerting.
I will not name manufacturers here but some stuff really is all hype. Like longer legth stronger loft irons to give one an illusion that the club is magically longer. I like to know where on the face I hit it and with some of the newer stuff you can't. Drivers uber long and superlight. I understand and agree with the science that more potential distance is available however I cannot help but think that everything in golf is a tradeoff. I can't use a driver on course swinging out of my shoes for the outlying crushed ball to me thats not golf.
I would like to see the manufacturers truly concerned with helping the average golfer and longer clubs (for the most part) are not what most folks need.
Good call on your fitting experience though man for sure there must be outlying guys that are big enough that a standard club causes them to have bad address.
LOL I just don't buy the marketing crud in golf as a whole. The more I play the less I think club type is that important.
Its just my opinion thats it.
I think most people would be best served getting an in person lesson from a good pro than buying new clubs.
Obviously the better the golfer (ie pros)is the more I should think this changes. I am a hack so I do not repeat to the level of precision of some golfers and I am sure for them tiny tweaks might really be huge depending on their tendencies.
Still though the better you are the easier it will be to find a way to make something work so maybe it's still Indian not arrow...(for the most part)

 

[Frans@France]

I got fit at a very nice facility last year on Trackman while seeing ballflight since it was outside and I hit a lot of clubs. I didn't see major changes with anything other than feel.

And the clubfitter did not explain why your dispersion was not changing when changing clubs? If he did not explain that you did not have a fitting!

Still though the better you are the easier it will be to find a way to make something work so maybe it's still Indian not arrow...(for the most part)

Below a former challenge tour indian, yellow and blue are his current two sets he plays. The pink is a fitted club.

I think theres a lot to be said also for fitting to a goal where if a guy is working on something for whatever reason he may not want clubs that exactly fit his current move-maybe he's trying to get flatter so he wants a flatter lie than is optimum for his current move in order to help him in his quest.

I can show you similar images from fittings for all level of players. Be it scratch or beginners. Only a few I could not improve, one had a already well fitted driver and other was trying to control his club so extreme that the material did not influence his awkward behaviour at all.

 

[grahler]

Fran,

Read the last part of my previous post. I said with really good players tiny tweaks might be huge. I am just sayin overall the golf industry is a monster marketing machine and most folks scores do not drop no matter how many 'fitted' drivers and irons etc they have.
I never said my dispersion did not change based on changing clubs during my last fitting.
Its just my opinion but I really think most players would benefit more in their game working on swing mechanics with a good pro than looking for that magic set of clubs that the golf industry says will give them exttra yardage or what have you.
I have seen it all around me with people always searching for that magic club and I think a lot of it is pure and simple marketing hype. Golf is a business sadly.
Every driver that comes out lets you hit 15 yards more carry no matter what your swingspeed is lol.
IMO its hype.
Longer length stronger loft clubs are made because of hype people want distance and they are willing to drop some hard earned coin to try and get it-just the way it is.
Most golfers are not good enough in the first place to require fitted gear IMO.

 

[Frans@France]

Longer length stronger loft clubs are made because of hype people want distance and they are willing to drop some hard earned coin to try and get it-just the way it is.

I agree, fitted someoe yesterday but because his taylormade 30degree Iron 7 (sic!) was longer then the clubs i fitted him in, he did not even cared about the improved dispersion I gave him.

Most golfers are not good enough in the first place to require fitted gear IMO.

I disagree and if you give me a definition of "most golfers"' I'm more then willing to find that golfer in my database and post the fitting result.

I never said my dispersion did not change based on changing clubs during my last fitting.

So, was it beter or not? Did the fitter explain why that was? If not .......was a really a fitting...or just some show which included the TrackMan?

 

[magicmarker]

I agree, fitted someoe yesterday but because his taylormade 30degree Iron 7 (sic!) was longer then the clubs i fitted him in, he did not even cared about the improved dispersion I gave him.

Therein lies part of the problem, people want to be longer more than they want to better. The naive golfer wants to get longer to get better. The wise golfer knows once you can reach the greens in regulation, control is the key to lowering scores. You get most length with a better swing, you can get much better dispersion with well fit equipment.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I can always count on Frans to help me out...wish i could get to France and get fit i bet you have an awesome setup.

 

[grahler]

Frans,

If you would I would like to see dispersion data on like 12-15 handicap that you improved.

My fitting experience was essentially body measurements followed by various iron clubhead designs and playing around with the shafts. When I kind of got what I liked we did lie board to get the setup finished. I was fit for my irons only.
I did try diff length on the shafts and found longer was a bit longer hit well but my contact/dispersion seemed to suffer slightly. I was fit to six iron and bought a set. In retrospect I would like to check each club but I did not do that.
I have since sold that set 1-2 years ago and bought a different set of irons same shaft and basic head design-but for aesthetic reasons. They play great for me and I don't plan to change.
The clubs I have ever hit that seemed to make a difference to me were immediately so far out of wack it was obvious. I hit my buddys reg shaft high launch 3 wood and it was like hitting a short iron-no matter what I could not get that things down due to ballooning high flight. Seems like 1-2 swings is really enough for a club to determine if its potentially useable.
So I guess I should preface my its the Indian comments with "as long as things are not ridiculously far out of wack"
Thanks for any data you might provide-looks like you take pride in this.

 

[Frans@France]

Frans,

If you would I would like to see dispersion data on like 12-15 handicap that you improved.

hcp 14, young kid.

My fitting experience was essentially body measurements followed by various iron clubhead designs and playing around with the shafts. When I kind of got what I liked we did lie board to get the setup finished. I was fit for my irons only.
I did try diff length on the shafts and found longer was a bit longer hit well but my contact/dispersion seemed to suffer slightly. I was fit to six iron and bought a set.

I never take body measurements as they will not tell you how the real setup for that person is or how he would like to stand at address. I also don't use the lie board because the feedback by it has to be carefully interpreted by using some datasheet that explains all possible outcomes depending on face angle and clubpath, way too hard. I use a sharpie on the ball and some impact tape on the face.

Seems like 1-2 swings is really enough for a club to determine if its potentially useable.

Only for a very small group of golfer! Most golfer need 2-3 shots to adapt to the club, in fact the faster a golfer adapts the more "natural" talent he has.

Seems to me that those 1-2 swings for you is not to determine its potentail usability but to feel if the clubs "fits" correctly in your comfort zone. That is normal behaviour for scratch and beter players with a strong feel orientated approach towards golf.

 

[Frans@France]

I can always count on Frans to help me out...wish i could get to France and get fit i bet you have an awesome setup.

Join Brian on his trip to Europe

The setup is standard, I just spend a lot of time on fitting to understand the golfer and his sensitivities. 4 hours for only one clubtype is almost standard. I will change setup when the bid to a new place/house is accepted and I can start building what I really would like to have as an setup

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Join Brian on his trip to Europe

The setup is standard, I just spend a lot of time on fitting to understand the golfer and his sensitivities. 4 hours for only one clubtype is almost standard. I will change setup when the bid to a new place/house is accepted and I can start building what I really would like to have as an setup

I'm planning a European vacation summer of 2013, maybe I'll find the time to make it out

 

[drewyallop]

hcp 14, young kid.

I never take body measurements as they will not tell you how the real setup for that person is or how he would like to stand at address. I also don't use the lie board because the feedback by it has to be carefully interpreted by using some datasheet that explains all possible outcomes depending on face angle and clubpath, way too hard. I use a sharpie on the ball and some impact tape on the face.

Only for a very small group of golfer! Most golfer need 2-3 shots to adapt to the club, in fact the faster a golfer adapts the more "natural" talent he has.

Seems to me that those 1-2 swings for you is not to determine its potentail usability but to feel if the clubs "fits" correctly in your comfort zone. That is normal behaviour for scratch and beter players with a strong feel orientated approach towards golf.

Frans,

You should check out the discussion in the ASII video on the effects of impact tape, the use of marks on the ball, and lie angle adjustments. Ping has done research on this and the findings may surprise.

 

[mjstrong]

Grah,

I know exactly what you're saying re: the golf industry and the marketing machines. You obviously understand the way that clubs have changed to make it seem like a club goes further. However, a fitting is totally different. A properly fit set will give you more consistent results with your own swing, and require fewer compensations to hit good shots. That's all.

It's just much easier to have an expert figure out what those specs are, than to try and do it yourself by just trial and error. You could honestly fit yourself quite well, if you had access to all the different combinations of the club's components and a way to accurately track your shots. It would take forever, but the shots with the tightest dispersions (a la Frans' diagrams) would indicate the best fit.

Sometimes a fitting will make a huge difference, sometimes only marginal. But, trust us, a properly fit set of clubs will only make it easier to hit good shots.

 

[grahler]

Thanks Mj and all for their input. If Fran can get tighter dispersion on a 15 capper like that its impressive. I still believe the primary factor is the Indian but perhaps I now have room to consider the value of matched arrows...

 

[mjstrong]

I don't think anybody'll disagree with you that the player is more responsible than the golf clubs.