trainerdug
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I hear ya Matt F - in that particular vid I was really focusing on doing the opposite of getting stuck, which I guess results in being pretty steep (when you're doing it wrong like I'm sure I am/was)
Controlling the amount of tumble
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SteveT
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Fair enough, but which of your hands applies the "tumble" torque... the lead hand and arm, or the lower hand and arm? Or a bit of both?
If you have a conscious feel of "tumble" control, surely you must be able to discriminate between the hand and arm actions to achieve "tumble". Nothing "scientific" here.
Lindsey Newman
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This may initially sound sad, but I feel that in year 10 I started to reach that level of awareness. I also began playing golf at 23 which I am sure delayed my progress.
I think your second point is the key. Understand that downswing awareness and control is possible and you can cut down on that time line.
Experiment, evaluate and be focused on what you're doing all the while.
I once heard Johnny Miller say he could feel or control his impact. I thought he was full of shit and I was wrong. You have to work for it, but it is possible.
I believe
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SteveT
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As I stated on another thread:
Some are now claiming they have achieved a continuous "feeel" of the downswing, but are still unable to define what forces they are applying. It's a case of "feedback" feel versus "feed-forward" forces.
Feeel is useless unless you know what you did to achieve those "feeels". Seems like most are still stuck in their feeel and can't understand the physics. Oh, well ....
Some are now claiming they have achieved a continuous "feeel" of the downswing, but are still unable to define what forces they are applying. It's a case of "feedback" feel versus "feed-forward" forces.
Feeel is useless unless you know what you did to achieve those "feeels". Seems like most are still stuck in their feeel and can't understand the physics. Oh, well ....
SteveT, from your post 24, I can see you are NOW FREE and WILL STOP commenting in-any-way on feels on the Brian Manzella forum. Good job!, I congratulate you on overcoming your obsession.
However, in your recovery program, I advise not wandering into threads with people who post such comments about "feels" or their explanations to begin with. In fact, I think there's a billiard forum that concentrates on angles and forces that would be a good place to begin your re-entry into "safe" conversation with people who are safe and will keep from tempting you into any possible relapse.
However, in your recovery program, I advise not wandering into threads with people who post such comments about "feels" or their explanations to begin with. In fact, I think there's a billiard forum that concentrates on angles and forces that would be a good place to begin your re-entry into "safe" conversation with people who are safe and will keep from tempting you into any possible relapse.
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Lindsey Newman
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SteveT
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For you and trainerdug who asked you:
You responded to him with somewhat vague comments:
You obviously feel you have attained a "dynamic awareness" of your golfswing after 10 years of playing and practicing, but you didn't explain what he should do to avoid "on learning the right way of doing things rather than going in circles". Your "contribution" was to "focus on what you are doing" and perhaps searching for that special "feeel"!
So what should he do? Should he beat balls for 10 years and search for some kind of "feeel" feedback, or should he learn how to apply forces in a feed-forward manner? Isn't Brian trying to find the forces that define the golfswing through his scientific team?
(As for dbl's silly comments, perhaps he should tell Brian to stop talking "science" too... on the Brian Manzella Forum.)
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Matt 4-L
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Steve T. has all this science knowledge done anything for your golf game? Are you still a bogey golfer? I wouldn't bust on somebody because they play by feel when you can't say that science has lowered your handicap yet. Like it or not feel is always going to be part of the game as hopefully science will be also.
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SteveT
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Yes, science has liberated my golf game, since I started to play golf in my late 40's... after having played college b'ball and being a rather good club tennis player. I've played other sports recreationally at a competitive level. Golf came late and my game peaked several years ago, and age has limited my ability to power my swing. I'm proud of my "bogey" game and I don't lose balls with wild swings. As a "bogey" golfer, I am in the top 3% of all golfers worldwide according to PGA stats. Science cannot return me to my youth, but it enables me to play decent golf based on scientific principles.
My advantage is that I'm not searching for "feeel"; rather, I'm continuously applying Newtonian physics to control my swing and play within my capabilities. I hope you're not expecting "science" to solve your swing faults because "feeel" golfers tend to be ignorant about forces and physics. They like to boast how great their homemade swing performs and might consider a "scientific tip" or two if it gives them instant "feeel" results and pleasure.
"feeel" is like putting the cart before the horse force ....
Matt 4-L
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I'm not sure where you are getting the top 3% world wide but according to the usga the average men's handicap in the US is 16.1 so that would put you below average. Either way, I am not busting on your golf game just asking if you have seen improvement since you started the scientific approach, I would think you should be able to shave more strokes off your game even into you fifties and sixties.
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SteveT
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But, natep .... you've got to do "something" before you can feel your "feeels". It's that "something" that Brian's Project 1.68 is trying to discover with his distinguished scientific team.
A perfect example is Brian's "going normal" which is just the full application of "centripetal force" going into impact!!!
Otherwise, all you are left with is somebody guessing and telling you "try this".. and than asking you "how does that feeel"...!!!!
With Trackman and a solid scientific base, Brian is trying to eliminate the "guessing". You then practice to perfection and then present yourself on the golf course stage to perform flawlessly and automatically. Now that's "fun"...!!!!
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SteveT
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90% of golfers worldwide cannot break 100, honestly... and those who claim to play in the 90's usually cheat by ignoring the Rules of Golf.
What science has taught me is the correct path to developing a reliable golfswing, without deluding and fantacizing about pro golfer swings, their books and equipment love. Most who claim a 16.1 handicap can only do it on their familiar home course... but take them to a more challenging course and they can't break 100.
My scientific knowledge and training enables me to play at a consistent level on most any course, even for the first time. Big hitters usually flop when they can't conquer the course. Btw, I got my handicap down to 10 before age caught up with me. If I were young again and knew what I know now scientifically.... PGA here I come ....
Lindsey Newman
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SteveT,
I gave him what I have learned through experience. I am all for empirical data and scientific proven technique.
BUT, acquiring a motor skill takes many repititions and focus during those hours of practice. I cannot give a detailed roadmap for acquiring a motor skill which is why my advice may have seemed vague. Everyone learns differently, but one thing is for sure, you must put in the time on the rock pile.
While I wish there were hard fast and infallible answers to all golfswing related questions, there simply are not. Project 1.68 will surely make the car faster, but the road will still need to be driven.
Your incessant drill downs on non-scientifically proven thoughts and ideas become more tiresome everyday. Not every post needs to have a mathematical equation to have merit.
I FEEL like I'm going to punch myself in the balls on the downswing and it helps me not get so under-plane. I FEEL as though I'm going to apply force to my sack. Extremely unscientific but it's really helping me right now, I can actually pitch the ball once again. If I could get this strained muscle in my chest to heal I could practice it a bit more but it was working extremely well.
trainerdug
New
Haha good tip Scott...I'll have to try that one next time
I had an interesting range session and I'd like to know if there is any reasoning behind it. I thought back to the 2-day golf school I took with Brian and Mike Jacobs a few summers ago..when they really had me bringing my hands towards my right hip at takeaway. I combined that with another of Brian's videos I watched today in which he pointed out that for some people it's okay to have the 'fying elbow'. I combined those two ideas this evening while hitting balls and it really helps me feel like I can 'get on top of' the club as I come down. Does this make any sense and is there any reasoning behind it?
I had an interesting range session and I'd like to know if there is any reasoning behind it. I thought back to the 2-day golf school I took with Brian and Mike Jacobs a few summers ago..when they really had me bringing my hands towards my right hip at takeaway. I combined that with another of Brian's videos I watched today in which he pointed out that for some people it's okay to have the 'fying elbow'. I combined those two ideas this evening while hitting balls and it really helps me feel like I can 'get on top of' the club as I come down. Does this make any sense and is there any reasoning behind it?
drewyallop
New
Sexist!
Dariusz J.
New member
Actually, the truth is much simplier, namely -- the more time-consuming a swing concept is the worse it is. Period. People believe that they must sacrifice thousands of range hours, millions of drills and hundreds of toys and never thought about what I wrote above. The sad part is that such people are strongest defenders of their beliefs -- perhaps because they are afraid to admit how much time they wasted and how naiive they were.
BTW, Steve is right -- feels are deceiving what can be easily seen or proved. Feels are so subjective things that basing ideas on feels are totally useless. Even Hogan and his best book is a proof of it.
Cheers
Lindsey Newman
New
Dariusz,
Just so I am clear, are you saying that if you have the correct information that you will not need to practice?
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