Controlling the amount of tumble

[Dariusz J.]

Please explain to ME, as if I was a beginner, how to swing a golf club. Please don't use the word feel at any point.

I can do it easily but I see no point of doing it since no matter what I wrote you will ridicule it. Seriously.

Dariusz,
Just so I am clear, are you saying that if you have the correct information that you will not need to practice?

Depends what one's goal is. Sure if one wants to improve year by year serious training is necessary -- but even in such cases it should not force to sacrifice so many hours. I know personally such range rats who cannot go below 90 despite spending millions of hours and thousands of zlotys for silly gadgets and ineffective lessons. Why ? Because they are full of conscious thoughts trying to match some subconscious-unfriendly concepts blindly believing in muscle memory. It's sad, however, maybe they like what they are doing, who knows ?
I personally am after 2 years of my experiment and can GUARANTEE to you that it is possible to maintain more or less a decent level (my HCP dropped only 0.7 points despite spending NO SINGLE range hour on training not counting few balls for warming up and playing usually once a week). Why IMO ? Because of using macroscale basis for a setup-dependent subconscious-friendly motion. And I am neither a golfing genius with superb touch nor a healthy and flexible youngster.

Cheers

 

[Lindsey Newman]

This is becoming exhausting.

Maybe I am insane. To begin with, we are on a forum designed to help golfers get better. I would assume that anyone giving or taking advice is TRYING to be the best they possibly can be. Obviously, the regulars here on Brianmanzella.com are looking for premier information to attain a high level of performance. Sure, most here have jobs and families and can only do what they can do, but they all want to get better. The idea that one can become a scratch or better player without significant practice is folly. I absolutely agree that good information will accelerate that process, but you still have to AQUIRE the movements. You must "create" the neurological pathways for movement.

There is no easy way out. It takes physical effort as well as cognitive effort to be a premier ball striker - FACT

 

[Matt 4-L]

I'm sorry but you guys just don't get it. We are not against scientific knowledge but for it to be useful it needs to be translated into a feel otherwise we have no clue if we are doing what we think we are. For example, Brian tells a student to apply a torque to the club to keep it from opening up and the guys says you mean like twisting it away from me, that's a feel but not necessarily unscientific, just a scientific term put into lay terms for us non scientist.

 

[bendet3]

I'm sorry but you guys just don't get it. We are not against scientific knowledge but for it to be useful it needs to be translated into a feel otherwise we have no clue if we are doing what we think we are. For example, Brian tells a student to apply a torque to the club to keep it from opening up and the guys says you mean like twisting it away from me, that's a feel but not necessarily unscientific, just a scientific term put into lay terms for us non scientist.

Great, great, great post Matt. Was wondering if I was the only "dummy" not getting it. I just want to learn what I can (on my own, as I don't live anywhere near a good instructor) and have been coming here for years because Brian satisfies the 2 requirements that I look for 1)His findings aren't just "hunches" 2)He does a better job than anyone else I have read at using analogies and "laymen's terms" at trying to get his knowledge across. Sorry, off topic.

 

[JEREMY5577]

Actually, the truth is much simplier, namely -- the more time-consuming a swing concept is the worse it is. Period. People believe that they must sacrifice thousands of range hours, millions of drills and hundreds of toys and never thought about what I wrote above. The sad part is that such people are strongest defenders of their beliefs -- perhaps because they are afraid to admit how much time they wasted and how naiive they were.

I guess I was looking at this wrong. I thought I was having FUN at the range practicing for hours seeing improvement and zoning out for a few hours getting away from the hustle and bustle of my daily life. I guess its just a naiive waste of time. But if my choices are go beat balls and see no improvement or lay around and watch the big bang theory with you and steveT, I'm going to the range.

 

[Bigwill]

Big Bang Theory

 

[Dariusz J.]

This is becoming exhausting.

Maybe I am insane. To begin with, we are on a forum designed to help golfers get better. I would assume that anyone giving or taking advice is TRYING to be the best they possibly can be. Obviously, the regulars here on Brianmanzella.com are looking for premier information to attain a high level of performance. Sure, most here have jobs and families and can only do what they can do, but they all want to get better. The idea that one can become a scratch or better player without significant practice is folly. I absolutely agree that good information will accelerate that process, but you still have to AQUIRE the movements. You must "create" the neurological pathways for movement.

First, nobody said about scratch or better players, Lindsay. Second, there are quite a big number of people I assume that would like to play golf on a decent level (so that they are not disturbing on golf courses) but they have no time for practicing. I belong to this group -- I have no much more time to practice due to various duties and no aspirations to play on Tour. But playing between 75 and 85 is perfectly acceptable -- the more I am about to do it WITHOUT CARING ABOUT IT, so to speak.

I'm sorry but you guys just don't get it. We are not against scientific knowledge but for it to be useful it needs to be translated into a feel otherwise we have no clue if we are doing what we think we are. For example, Brian tells a student to apply a torque to the club to keep it from opening up and the guys says you mean like twisting it away from me, that's a feel but not necessarily unscientific, just a scientific term put into lay terms for us non scientist.

Telling to student twist the shaft open is not a feel. It is a simple command using simple physic word.
Feel would be if Brian said e.g. "now feel like you are going to throw a drunken man".

I guess I was looking at this wrong. I thought I was having FUN at the range practicing for hours seeing improvement and zoning out for a few hours getting away from the hustle and bustle of my daily life. I guess its just a naiive waste of time. But if my choices are go beat balls and see no improvement or lay around and watch the big bang theory with you and steveT, I'm going to the range.

That's why I said "maybe they like what they are doing, who knows ?" in my previous post. Just about such enthusiasts of training like you are.

Cheers

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Very revealing. I shall dismiss your information going forward as you obviously are not serious enough for ME. I have no plans to play at a mediocre level.

All the best,

Lindsey

 

[ekennedy]

There's a reason the golf swing is not taught in a classroom.

That's the problem with "internet swing experts", they have no real world experience with students. Students of ALL levels.

It's easy to pick apart an established golf swing with established patterns and laugh at what they are trying to do. Explain to us (or them) that they are neither anatomically correct or scientifically based in their attempts to hit a little white ball. What you can't do (any of you, SteveT...) is fix someone. Even better, you can't take a beginner and make them great. You MAY, make a hacker a better hacker, but for every golfer you would improve, your "knowledge" would make a 100 GOOD players, much, much worse.

Dariusz, I will not mock you, but I would love to read how you plan to teach and communicate your "set-up dependent subconscious friendly motion" to a non-golfer. You don't get the benefit (like us real life teachers) of keeping the good components of an established player's motion and changing only the components you disagree with.

Like I said, the golf swing is not taught in a classroom.

 

[magicmarker]

SteveT

first and foremost, you are NOT in the top 3%. Certainly not in the top 3% of those that play regularly, and most certainly not in the top 3% that hang around golf forums such as this one. Easy on the back-patting, I'm not sure you have the x-factor for it.

secondly, your constant condemnation of other players (better players) feels, is not just rude, it is ignorance. What you don't seem to get is the tangible benefit (lower scores) that the better player 'feels' can produce for not just them, but for other golfers as well. It is real, it might not show up on your scorecard, nonetheless real to MANY others. Lindsay doesn't post much but when he does you would be wise to flip your keyboard upside down and just READ.

third, how would you teach a child who hasn't taken physics, and doesn't know the least bit about science. Don't touch that club kid, you don't know enough science to make it work, let's go inside and study some more?

 

[cnadon]

I FEEL like I'm going to punch myself in the balls on the downswing and it helps me not get so under-plane. I FEEL as though I'm going to apply force to my sack. Extremely unscientific but it's really helping me right now, I can actually pitch the ball once again. If I could get this strained muscle in my chest to heal I could practice it a bit more but it was working extremely well.

If ever there were a conclusive argument for FEEL over REAL, I think Scott P has hit upon it.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz, I will not mock you, but I would love to read how you plan to teach and communicate your "set-up dependent subconscious friendly motion" to a non-golfer. You don't get the benefit (like us real life teachers) of keeping the good components of an established player's motion and changing only the components you disagree with.

OK, let's try then -- first, I'd like to say that I would prefer to teach an absolute beginner than to fix a golfer (because of my ignorance in microscale teachings). BTW, this is why I fully agree with you that this is the problem with "internet swing experts", they have no real world experience with students. I have some experiences but they are very small.

It is much easier to teach macroscale to a complete beginner since he/she is a "tabula rasa"; I'd start definitely with stance which is the most important fundamental for me. I would explain what are correct intentions of the motion and relation between target and the body. I would explain how being a biped is a bliss and how to benefit from this fact. I would explain why there is a necessity for triggering the whole motion. I would make them aware of lofts. Then basics of the swinging from the ground up and from the core out and how to use ground forces and how to benefit from natural forces such as e.g. gravity. I'd say a few words about the theory of limitations in hard structure of the body to help automating certain aspects as e.g. transition or impact.
As you see, nothing about feels. Actually I tested this approach twice to complete novice golfers and they were able to hit the ball airborne more than 50% of strokes.

Cheers

 

[ekennedy]

Good luck, Dariusz.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Good luck, Dariusz.

Well, I was sorta right you're gonna ridicule my theories. Stupid me, I forgot that 97% of beginners are children between 4 and 8 years old. You got me. Geez...

Cheers

 

[Dariusz J.]

Very revealing. I shall dismiss your information going forward as you obviously are not serious enough for ME. I have no plans to play at a mediocre level.

All the best,

Lindsey

Good you changed the abusive content of your post. I never aspired to be helpful to better players (although paradoxially helped quite a few it appeared) but mainly to weekend hackers being not a great player myself.
I wonder though what score would you play, say, on my home course. Saw such "players" with US hcp below 5 who weren't close to break 90 there.

Good luck anyhow, Lindsey (sorry for not writing your name correctly in my previous post).

Cheers