"D" Plane alignment

[jimmyt]

With all the new data available regarding D Plane and aiming more left with short irons and moving slightly more right as the clubs get longer to slightly right with driver. In SD Brian said aim feet slightly right of target, then have a slightly closed club, nothing about hips and shoulders

I have an alignment question:

When you want to hit a straight shot and are aiming left what is aiming left. is it feet,hips and shoulders, just feet, what? Then were does the club aim at the target?

Then if you would be so kind as to explain alignment if I would like to fade or draw the ball.

This would really clear some things up for me.

Thanks Jim T

 

[jimmyt]

Brian, Manzella Academy and others

How about a little help here?

I would really appreciate it!

Thanks

Jimmy T

 

[holeout]

The thing you are aiming left is the general golf swing. Feet, hips, shoulders, etc. would all be aimed more left with a shorter iron then a longer iron or driver. In TGM terms, it would aiming the plane line.

 

[Kevin Shields]

For a straight shot, everything including the face is aiming left. The downward hit still has the clubface going toward the plane line so if the clubface is square it will go straight.

There are waaaay too many variables on alignment for shots that curve. Someone who's 6 iron is 2 degrees inside out with 5 degrees downward hit and a 1 degree open face would have to aim significantly different from somebody with different numbers.

 

[jimmyt]

So everything including club face is aimed left for straight shot with shorter irons. Its the D plane dynamics, loft, shaft lean, etc. That cause the ball to go straight, I assume, seems almost counter intuitive but I won't argue with the physics.

What does surprise me is what appears to be so difficult to figure out how to curve a ball. There has to be an easier way then figuring out dgrees of forward shaft lean etc.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[birdie_man]

Use that information (even if it is a generalized version of some kind) to develop different patterns to hit the shots you want.

"The club needs to do 'X' to hit [shot]."

"I need to do 'Y' with my body to make the club do 'X'."

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

instead of trying to fit yourself into some kind of mold; learn how the d-plane works to adjust your pattern for the ball flight you want

 

[Kevin Shields]

So everything including club face is aimed left for straight shot with shorter irons. Its the D plane dynamics, loft, shaft lean, etc. That cause the ball to go straight, I assume, seems almost counter intuitive but I won't argue with the physics.

What does surprise me is what appears to be so difficult to figure out how to curve a ball. There has to be an easier way then figuring out dgrees of forward shaft lean etc.

Thanks for your reply.

No no no. You dont have to figure out Degrees of whatever. Work on your pattern, strike it properly for you then trust your eyeballs on where to aim it. Just understand D plane and dont TRY to do anything that violates it, like aim straight swing straight and expect the ball to go straight. Work on your swing, then aim it.

 

[mjstrong]

Use that information (even if it is a generalized version of some kind) to develop different patterns to hit the shots you want.

The club need to do 'X' to hit [shot].

I need to do 'Y' with my body to make the club do 'X'.

Birdie summed this up nicely. "In order to make the club do THAT, I need to think and feel THIS."

 

[birdie_man]

Thanks mj. (my Canadian brethren)

(I know brethren is plural but I like the sound of it)

Just reciting what I've picked up in here.

 

[ScottRob]

For a straight shot, everything including the face is aiming left. The downward hit still has the clubface going toward the plane line so if the clubface is square it will go straight.

I thought the face it aimed at the target i.e. open relative to the plane line that is rotated in order to comply with the D-plane?

 

[spktho]

For a straight shot, everything including the face is aiming left. The downward hit still has the clubface going toward the plane line so if the clubface is square it will go straight.

I thought the face it aimed at the target i.e. open relative to the plane line that is rotated in order to comply with the D-plane?

let's see if I can explain this. The downward hit means the club is hitting the ball before the low point of the arc. This means that the ball will start a little right of this which, if the club face is square to the path at low point, will be a little open before low point and hopefully square to the target line when the ball is struck.

I'm sure I butchered it a bit. Watch this:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uepMzddHpas[/media]

 

[ScottRob]

Yes, I have watched this. Thanks. Most important golf video I have ever watched! still, I thought the HSP is rotated left of the target, and the club face is square to the target, but open relative to the "new" HSP. I must be missing something.

 

[wulsy]

let's see if I can explain this. The downward hit means the club is hitting the ball before the low point of the arc. This means that the ball will start a little right of this which, if the club face is square to the path at low point, will be a little open before low point and hopefully square to the target line when the ball is struck.

That's the best description I've read about D-plane alignment spktho. That's an example of how linguistics effects understanding. This is however IMO not neuro this or neuro that. Just using language effectively to communicate. Can this principle be "formula-lised" and used by others? I don't know, but I doubt it. (reference to thread http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/14526-other-side-story.html )

 

[spktho]

Yes, I have watched this. Thanks. Most important golf video I have ever watched! still, I thought the HSP is rotated left of the target, and the club face is square to the target, but open relative to the "new" HSP. I must be missing something.

I don't know what you mean by "new" hsp. But, this may help more, especially when Michael demonstrates with the hula hoop and table edge:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo1EnIPQxQQ[/media]

That's the best description I've read about D-plane alignment spktho. That's an example of how linguistics effects understanding. This is however IMO not neuro this or neuro that. Just using language effectively to communicate. Can this principle be "formula-lised" and used by others? I don't know, but I doubt it. (reference to thread http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/14526-other-side-story.html )

Thanks, I tried, although it still reads awkward to me and is somewhat incomplete--I forgot to mention the club path is on an incline, for example. As you probably know using Trackman or similar club head/ball flight monitoring systems is about the only way to put this into practice. It also is huge in understanding why a ball had a certain shape or direction. The hard part is understanding how to correct an undesirable ball flight or how to duplicate a desired ball flight without such tools.

If I understand you correctly your right, understanding concepts through reading or listening is a lot different than learning complex coordinated body movements like in the golf swing.

 

[ekennedy]

Forgive me if this question has been asked before, but since the guys that built those giant PVC pipe circles truly thought they were on to something, is it AT LEAST possible that the hula hoop that is being used to describe all of these swing theories (including the D Plane) isn't really shaped like a hula hoop?

Can a player change the shape of their hula hoop or is it simply physics that dictates that once the down swing begins it continues on that arc unimpeded? I know that some of these videos and examples are used for simplicity, but I think its a valid question. As a chronic underplaner, my feeling would be that if my club gets stuck behind me, that my hula hoop (swing direction) would be pointed right of the target, but through extreme effort to swing left and an unfortunate down arching of the wrists, my divots can still go left. I got a feeling I would have a strange looking, warped hula hoop at times.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Yes, I have watched this. Thanks. Most important golf video I have ever watched! still, I thought the HSP is rotated left of the target, and the club face is square to the target, but open relative to the "new" HSP. I must be missing something.

I honestly dont remember what was going on in that conversation back then. The face is square to the hsp but if it strikes it on the way down it would be open to the target, which is why you move the hsp left.

Another thing from the OP, you dont necessarily at all have to swing more left with short irons. In fact, its more often the other way around if the attack angle is even similar.

 

[spktho]

Forgive me if this question has been asked before, but since the guys that built those giant PVC pipe circles truly thought they were on to something, is it AT LEAST possible that the hula hoop that is being used to describe all of these swing theories (including the D Plane) isn't really shaped like a hula hoop?

Can a player change the shape of their hula hoop or is it simply physics that dictates that once the down swing begins it continues on that arc unimpeded? I know that some of these videos and examples are used for simplicity, but I think its a valid question. As a chronic underplaner, my feeling would be that if my club gets stuck behind me, that my hula hoop (swing direction) would be pointed right of the target, but through extreme effort to swing left and an unfortunate down arching of the wrists, my divots can still go left. I got a feeling I would have a strange looking, warped hula hoop at times.

I'm not privy to any "real" evidence. But, the club head sweetspot path is probably not a hula-hoop. That is just used as a diagram to help visualize the path near the impact. It sounds to me like you are describing "tumbling" to get the hsp to go left.

 

[spktho]

Another thing from the OP, you dont necessarily at all have to swing more left with short irons. In fact, its more often the other way around if the attack angle is even similar.

Would this explain a lot of pulled short iron shots?

 

[ekennedy]

I am most certainly describing tumbling, but it doesn't change the question. If you use a hula hoop to describe the VSP and swing direction to keep it simple, than what is the actual shape of the path the sweetspot is travelling? Is it a perfect sphere and can it change direction from its original path? Its an important question because if I take a hula hoop and start bending it like a pretzel, it's going to have a serious effect on the simplicity of describing the D Plane.