"D" Plane alignment

[gailfcno]

I honestly dont remember what was going on in that conversation back then. The face is square to the hsp but if it strikes it on the way down it would be open to the target, which is why you move the hsp left.

Another thing from the OP, you dont necessarily at all have to swing more left with short irons. In fact, its more often the other way around if the attack angle is even similar.

hello kevin

im a little slow on the uptake sometimes. so what your saying is that everything including clubface aims left if you are hitting down on the ball. because if you hit ball before lowpoint it is traveling down and out which would have the face open to your new hsp and square to your target. im sorry but im totally confused on what you are saying about the short irons, i thought with short irons you aim left and swing left to compensate for the downward and outward path of your club.

 

[ScottRob]

I really thought I had this stuff down! This is my basic understanding, feel free to grade!

Striking a ball off the turf demands a downward angle of attack.
The down includes out because the plane is inclined.
Striking the ball before low point means that at impact the sweetspot is moving on a resultant in to out path.
In order to hit the ball straight two conditions must be met. First, the resultant path must "match" the target line and the face must be square to the resultant path. This dictates that the HSP be rotated to the left, so that the CP has the proper D-plane relationship to the target line.

My confusion stemmed from the (admittedly cherry-picked) quote about the face also being aimed left.

 

[SteveT]

I really feel sorry for you poor sots ... because to understand and apply the D-plane concept, you must juggle four or more variables, some pre-shot static variables and some dynamic variables, before you can resolve your shot shape.

Not only must you understand the 'normal' line perpendicular to the clubface and the AoA (or direction of the sweet spot), you must then factor in ball spin axis and your Address alignment to the ball.

Some even add another factor called "tumble torque" (axial torque of the handle) that you apply prior to Impact, but must be timed to present the 100 mph clubface in the proper Impact alignment ... good luck ...!!!!

Confusion reigns supreme in the iron chef kitchen ...!!!!

 

[ekennedy]

SteveT,

I've read alot of your posts on a number of topics and I've reached the conclusion that you are not only playing devil's advocate most of the time, but you are also an incredible douchebag. Congratulations, that's quite an accomplishment.

 

[SteveT]

SteveT,

I've read alot of your posts on a number of topics and I've reached the conclusion that you are not only playing devil's advocate most of the time, but you are also an incredible douchebag. Congratulations, that's quite an accomplishment.

When your level of intelligence has been exceeded, it's best you not reveal your stupidity ...!

 

[footwedge]

I really feel sorry for you poor sots ... because to understand and apply the D-plane concept, you must juggle four or more variables, some pre-shot static variables and some dynamic variables, before you can resolve your shot shape.

Not only must you understand the 'normal' line perpendicular to the clubface and the AoA (or direction of the sweet spot), you must then factor in ball spin axis and your Address alignment to the ball.

Some even add another factor called "tumble torque" (axial torque of the handle) that you apply prior to Impact, but must be timed to present the 100 mph clubface in the proper Impact alignment ... good luck ...!!!!

Confusion reigns supreme in the iron chef kitchen ...!!!!

What's so hard about that? Just use that brilliant computer you have upstairs. You can do it!....lol.

 

[SteveT]

What's so hard about that? Just use that brilliant computer you have upstairs. You can do it!....lol.

Even my 'puter' crashes sometimes when I try to resolve all the 'vectors' and 'spins' for my D-plane solution ...!!!

Oh what has golf come to ... GPS ... D-plane ... phased-array radar ... lasers ... Chinese technology titanium ... exotic buckyball nanoparticle graphite shafts ... sheeeesh ... pretty soon we'll all need golf 'shrinks' to keep our sanity ...

 

[Kevin Shields]

I really thought I had this stuff down! This is my basic understanding, feel free to grade!

Striking a ball off the turf demands a downward angle of attack.
The down includes out because the plane is inclined.
Striking the ball before low point means that at impact the sweetspot is moving on a resultant in to out path.
In order to hit the ball straight two conditions must be met. First, the resultant path must "match" the target line and the face must be square to the resultant path. This dictates that the HSP be rotated to the left, so that the CP has the proper D-plane relationship to the target line.

My confusion stemmed from the (admittedly cherry-picked) quote about the face also being aimed left.

You have it right. Sorry for any confusion

 

[Kevin Shields]

hello kevin

im a little slow on the uptake sometimes. so what your saying is that everything including clubface aims left if you are hitting down on the ball. because if you hit ball before lowpoint it is traveling down and out which would have the face open to your new hsp and square to your target. im sorry but im totally confused on what you are saying about the short irons, i thought with short irons you aim left and swing left to compensate for the downward and outward path of your club.

The clubface aims at the target along with the resultant clubpath.

You are correct in swinging left for short irons, its just not necessarily more left than long irons. They have a higher VSP on average which makes the downward attack angle less of an influence. If you hit down progressively less the longer the club, and swing each club on the "ideal" VSP, you can move the HSP the same amount left for every club thats hit off the ground.

Have fun at your next practice session. Make sure your head doesnt explode

 

[SteveT]

I really thought I had this stuff down! This is my basic understanding, feel free to grade!

Striking a ball off the turf demands a downward angle of attack.
The down includes out because the plane is inclined.
Striking the ball before low point means that at impact the sweetspot is moving on a resultant in to out path.
In order to hit the ball straight two conditions must be met. First, the resultant path must "match" the target line and the face must be square to the resultant path. This dictates that the HSP be rotated to the left, so that the CP has the proper D-plane relationship to the target line.

Not grading, but for perspective consider a 100 yard wedge shot with a +/- 1º deviation of the 'normal' clubface direction (it's not really a 'vector', just a baseline) ... and that will mean about a +/- 2 yard spread which is not bad considering.

I doubt you can be that accurate with your 'normal' clubface direction or your clubhead path. I also question if striking the ball some 6 inches before bottom is that significant to the 'in-to-out' clubhead path. 6 inches before bottoming is about 6º back, which skews the clubface 'normal' by an equivalent 6º to the right (if I've got my geometry right).

One solution is to open your stance by 6º, if you can sense that small a correction and thus avoid trying to angle the clubface 'normal' the target line. Another compensation is clubhead droop, which will flatten the effective lie angle and bring back the clubface 'normal' by opening the face. Then there is the influence of the stronger hand grip on short irons. Which way to go??

If you attempt to juggle all the variables, you too will get paralyzed by the analysis ....

 

[footwedge]

Even my 'puter' crashes sometimes when I try to resolve all the 'vectors' and 'spins' for my D-plane solution ...!!!

Oh what has golf come to ... GPS ... D-plane ... phased-array radar ... lasers ... Chinese technology titanium ... exotic buckyball nanoparticle graphite shafts ... sheeeesh ... pretty soon we'll all need golf 'shrinks' to keep our sanity ...

They got nanoparticle graphite shafts, get outta town! Or is that nanu, nanu, graphite shafts., ... We are past the golf shrink stage, there's no turning back now, the rabbit hole is way toooo deep, it's dark in here! ...lol.

 

[SteveT]

SHOUT !!! .. so I can hear where you are .....

 

[ekennedy]

I guess it's a good thing that it's still possible to play great golf and not be nearly as smart, academically as you, SteveT.

I give, as an example, Dustin Johnson. He's probably not going to make it to the bonus round of "Are You Smarter Than A 4th Grader?"

 

[footwedge]

SHOUT !!! .. so I can hear where you are .....

OVER HERE, I'M OVER HERE.......help...lol. Anyone got a flashlight?

 

[ScottRob]

You have it right. Sorry for any confusion

Thanks for the confirmation. You are right in that I did not know what the context relating to your concepts was.

Hey Steve the Terrible,

Without the D-plane you would have to break 70 to whip my @$$! With the D-plane...we will have to see When it all boils down D-plane is helping me to aim a little bit better, and explains how a lot of good swings went left!No vector figuring for me out there, just a better idea of what actually happens. The one billion computations per second brain box will handle it all without breaking stride! Someone needs to get you a giant wooden spoon for all your stirring!

 

[gailfcno]

The clubface aims at the target along with the resultant clubpath.

You are correct in swinging left for short irons, its just not necessarily more left than long irons. They have a higher VSP on average which makes the downward attack angle less of an influence. If you hit down progressively less the longer the club, and swing each club on the "ideal" VSP, you can move the HSP the same amount left for every club thats hit off the ground.

Have fun at your next practice session. Make sure your head doesnt explode

thanks very much kevin. all is now clear.