D Plane and Old PGA Ball Flight Laws (and a 250 definition of the D-Plane by BManz)

[Bronco Billy]

Question....

Not even close.

OK...

I will try to explain the D-Plane (The BALL FLIGHT Plane) in 250 words:

The clubhead is traveling up, down, or level; in, out, or straight, at impact. It does this while it is also traveling on a plane—the swing plane.

(Please do not confuse the D-Plane with the "Swing Plane," because a ball would still fly the same with only a one-inch linear clubhead movement, still on the "D-Plane.")

While the ball is being contacted by the clubface, that clubface is pointing upward (loft) sideward (lie angle+loft) right of the target (open), left of the target (closed), or at the target (square).

This D-Plane consists of three points: the ball, the direction the face is pointing (ala, lie angle tool) and the direction the clubhead is traveling at impact.

Since the ball is on the ground most of the time, golfers commonly hit down on the ball. About 6° with a lofted wedge, and about 3° with long clubs. Since the clubhead is itself traveling down a plane to get to the ball, it is also moving downward, forward, and most importantly outward at impact on shots being hit on the way down.

So....

The "bottom of the D-Plane" is the TRUE PATH of the clubhead in 3D space—starting from the ball—at impact.

The "top of the D-Plane" is the TRUE CLUBFACE "point"—like the lie angle tool—starting from the ball—at impact.

The ball itself, travels UP this D-Plane, starting about 70-85% toward the TRUE CLUBFACE POINT, and curves toward that point, on the D-Plane, until gravity, wind or whatever, changes the flight.​

So if you set-up square, and swung perfectly on a plane, that had its base (the plane line) perfectly pointing to the target, and the face was square, you'd miss the target wide left.
You can hit a fade with this alignment, with a very open clubface.

The ball would start WAY, WAY right, and curve further that way.

Are You Saying That All Golf Clubs are Designed Incorrectly? Thanks...

 

[Brian Manzella]

Are You Saying That All Golf Clubs are Designed Incorrectly? Thanks...

No.

I am saying that the last 600 years of golf books, were written incorrectly.

 

[HOT CHILLI]

The ball itself, travels UP this D-Plane, starting about 70-85% toward the TRUE CLUBFACE POINT, and curves toward that point, on the D-Plane, until gravity, wind or whatever, changes the flight.[/INDENT]

I thought The ball itself, travels UP this D-Plane, starting about 70-85% toward the TRUE CLUBFACE POINT, and curves Away from point, on the D-Plane, depends on the true path, if Inside-out you got a right to left Curvature or Outside-In then you got a left to right curvature(if the clubface fits to path of course) until gravity, wind or whatever, changes the flight.
How long/big is the TRUE CLUBFACE slope/side of the D-PLANE, approximately?

So if you set-up square, and swung perfectly on a plane, that had its base (the plane line) perfectly pointing to the target, and the face was square, you'd miss the target wide left.

When does to ball starts going left, 1,5,10,20 Yards?
When does the D-PLANE Triangle side ends and the other factors(wind) kicks in?
How big is the D-PLANE? approximatley...

So if you set-up square, and swung perfectly on a plane, that had its base (the plane line) perfectly pointing to the target, and the face was square, you'd miss the target wide left.

You can hit a fade with this alignment, with a very open clubface.

The ball would start WAY, WAY right, and curve further that way.

The face was square to the TARGET, not to the to true path(positive inside-out) than you'd miss the target wide left.

I don't want to sound difficult Brian, but lets say you have the DRIVER and level angle of attack(0° downward motion, low point Impact, 0° TRUE PATH) And you hit a fade/Push fade you not sure...how can you be sure that it was a square TRUE PATH and an open CLUBFACE(about 5°)?
Maybe it could have been an Inside-out True Path(positive about 4°) with an open Face of 4°? then you got a straight push, let's say I did thought I set up square and thought swung perfectly on a plane, but somehow I bend my planeline right without knowing...how can you really distinguish between a fade that didn't curve to much(wind from the right) fade from square true path and straight push from an Inside-out Postive true path, again when you don't have Trackman or video or somebody behind you.
Now I have to decide which pattern to choose, based on where the ball goes with the knowledge that MY true path is postive 4° insideout and clubface between square and 4° open, maybe I go with NH2 to fix my path, but again maybe it was a square true path and 5° open face than I need NSA2...

I think even I'm aware to the D-PLANE and know it(maybe), it's still not enough to figure exactly what pattern I need, I think Trackman is necessary, for the numbers(IF I don't have you or your staff near me).

 

[savydan]

The ball itself, travels UP this D-Plane, starting about 70-85% toward the TRUE CLUBFACE POINT, and curves toward that point, on the D-Plane, until gravity, wind or whatever, changes the flight.[/INDENT]

Would it be more accurate to say the ball curves "away from the true path vector" rather than "to the true face vector"?

 

[Bronco Billy]

Huh.... Worse Than I Thought.....

No.

I am saying that the last 600 years of golf books, were written incorrectly.

Is It Possible Using Your Ball Flight Rules to Design a Golf Club that Hits the GolfBall DeadAss Straight With an "Ideal" GolfSwing? Ie. As You Might Say "So if you set-up square, and swung perfectly on a plane, that had its base (the plane line) perfectly pointing to the target, and the face was square, With My(Brian's) Golf Club Design the Ball Would Go DeadAss Straight....." Thanks....

Ps. I Am Only Interested in DeadAss Straight... The Rest of the BS Confuses the Issue......

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

HOT CHILLI, Brian was fixing golf swings before trackman and i have been fitting people locally based on my visual assesment of ballflight for a while now. While "hard data" is the absolute BEST thing to have to "get it right" it doesn't mean you can't also get it right without it.

When i'm watching a golfer in a lesson i can tell from their swing and my knowledge of ball flight what they are doing to create the ball flight they have. Just the other day a student of mine called me from his vacay and couldn't hit it worth a lick. He described to me what was wrong and then i asked him a series of questions to diagnose what he was doing while knowing his tendencies and previous swing flaws.

I could then determine what he is doing with the clubhead/face through the ball to help him hit it better. Trackman is a wonderful tool and i wish i could afford one but that doesn't mean i'm going to stop teaching because i don't have one or that my ability to help people hit the ball better is going to any worse than what it currently is at. Sometimes giving people "the numbers" isn't a good thing especially if they think they do something completely different than what the data says.

 

[jake2]

I thought The ball itself, travels UP this D-Plane, starting about 70-85% toward the TRUE CLUBFACE POINT, and curves Away from point, on the D-Plane, depends on the true path, if Inside-out you got a right to left Curvature or Outside-In then you got a left to right curvature(if the clubface fits to path of course) until gravity, wind or whatever, changes the flight.
How long/big is the TRUE CLUBFACE slope/side of the D-PLANE, approximately?


When does to ball starts going left, 1,5,10,20 Yards?
When does the D-PLANE Triangle side ends and the other factors(wind) kicks in?
How big is the D-PLANE? approximatley...

You're asking way too hard questions. Plane is a plane and it is not nor it has to be particular size.

Ball starts on D-plane and in ideal world when there is zero horizontal angle difference between true path and face and air is perfectly calm and we can consider other factors like forces caused by earth's rotation insignificant, then the ball stays on D-plane at least as long as it hits the ground. D-plane is vertical in this case.

Where does the ball start to go off the D-plane? First of all, in real world you would first need to define how much the ball needs to be off the plane before you consider it being off-plane. If your definition would be for example one ball width, then it still depends on how much the D-plane is tilted off vertical and what's the wind doing.

I don't want to sound difficult Brian, but lets say you have the DRIVER and level angle of attack(0° downward motion, low point Impact, 0° TRUE PATH) And you hit a fade/Push fade you not sure...how can you be sure that it was a square TRUE PATH and an open CLUBFACE(about 5°)?
Maybe it could have been an Inside-out True Path(positive about 4°) with an open Face of 4°? then you got a straight push, let's say I did thought I set up square and thought swung perfectly on a plane, but somehow I bend my planeline right without knowing...how can you really distinguish between a fade that didn't curve to much(wind from the right) fade from square true path and straight push from an Inside-out Postive true path, again when you don't have Trackman or video or somebody behind you.

Things are easier if there is no wind.
With the wind you will need to be able to estimate what the wind is doing with your shots. Sorry - D-plane does not help you in that.

But - if I hit a straight push and have wind coming from the right, then I would assume that the face was open to the true path. How else could it be straight?

Anyway - you will not be able to know exact angles without Trackman or something similar, even if there's no wind.

You get an idea of the relationship between the face and path and you have to assess the magnitudes depending how far the ball curves with the particular club in the particular conditions.

And - as you pointed out, this knowledge does not replace swing coach and/or video.