Dark Ages

[mandrin]

​

It usually takes severe misconduct before someone is banned from a forum. Therefore it will perhaps come as a surprise that one can get banned simply because one hangs one's arguments objectively onto science/mathematics. That is right, no obscene language or personal insults or anything along that line, but simply posting using science.

Perhaps many will start to understand when I mention that TGM is involved. One time my very first post for a TGM-based forum, was intercepted and I got a simple PM telling me that I was not welcome. Now, just recently, I tried my luck on a different TGM forum, claimed to be #1 golf forum in another country, and treatment it is even worse.

After only a few days, no warning of any kind, they simply pulled the pin, disabling the posting features, effectively banning me from their site. Quietly like thieves in the night. No guts to even openly mention on their forum that I was not welcome with some science based information. Not even a simple PM. My multiple emails to admin were in vain.

Rather interestingly, concurrently, Gerry Hogan, a well known Aussie golf instructor, author of the intriguing book - 'The Hogan Golf Manual of Human Performance GOLF - was invited to participate in a special thread, dedicated to him, to answer questions. However like me it a only lasted for a few days.

Below, his quitting comments:

“I left purely and simply to avoid future clashes with TGM adherents, an influence which clearly dominates this forum. You are free to believe what you like, nobody respects that right more than I do and millions of people have shed their blood, lost their lives to preserve that right. It’s called Democracy. However, from what I have seen in this and numerous similar websites and forums, TGM has a driving, missionary zeal to convert the world of golf to a shrine to the memory of Homer Kelley and his Golfing Machine.”
I wish you all well and the best of luck.
Gerry Hogan

I found it truly both hilarious and ridiculous that while almost all facets of life nowadays are driven by science and technology that there are seemingly intelligent people who can behave so backwards. Why do they cling so desperately to concepts they know in their heart to be perhaps not quite true hence their paranoiac fear of real science, felt as a thread to their quasi-religious and rather more cult like perception of golf ?

Perhaps a rather interesting question to ponder on for any serious student interested in human behavior.

mandrin

 

[greenfree]

Like peoples religious beliefs in various Gods, can they all be right? Can you change people's beliefs that easily? I personally think it's hard to change a persons opinion/belief if they have fear of....?

 

[lookingtolearn]

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." -Stuart Chase

 

[ggsjpc]

Welcome back. Been too long....

 

[vjsinger]

I have heard some TGM "enthusiasts/literalists/followers", whatever, call the book a "feel" book, or a book that "describes feels to a golfer". What would you say to these people?

 

[Chip Putterman]

I am relatively new to this forum so could you please bring us up to speed what you are talking about. And what philosophy (way of thinking) it is that got you banned from other forums. I suppose I could do a search of your name but seeing that you have 1200+ posts, it would take all night. This forum gets new members every day so please enlighten us.

 

[mandrin]

I have heard some TGM "enthusiasts/literalists/followers", whatever, call the book a "feel" book, or a book that "describes feels to a golfer". What would you say to these people?

vjsinger,

They should brush up on their reading skills. It is rather tipsy topsy.

THE GOLFING MACHINE

GEOMETRIC GOLF

THE COMPUTER AGE APROACH TO GOLFING PREFECTION​

preface:

“So learn Feel from Mechanics rather than Mechanics from Feel”​

I hence believe that a true TGMer will maintain that mechanics is cause and that feeling is an effect/result.

I can't see how someone can say that the little yellow bible describes feel.

 

[Jon Hardesty]

Welcome back Mandrin!

Hopefully you know that we at the Manzella Golf Academy welcome the truth with open arms. We seek out the truth. No pseudo-science. If we believe something about the golf swing and find out that real science proves otherwise, then we change our belief. It's that simple.

Again, welcome back!

 

[Steve Greffen]

That's too bad Mandarin...the other sites just need to get to know you better!!!!

Steve

 

[mandrin]

Real science vs pseudo science

I am relatively new to this forum so could you please bring us up to speed what you are talking about. And what philosophy (way of thinking) it is that got you banned from other forums. I suppose I could do a search of your name but seeing that you have 1200+ posts, it would take all night. This forum gets new members every day so please enlighten us.

Chip,

Homer Kelley based his philosophy heavily on 'science'.

One has therefore a mix of golf and 'science'.

There is a semi religious cult like group adhering to his ideas,

and believe that anything important in golf is said and done in TGM.

Past, present, future, any golf swing at all - no need for further search.

They hate it when the science aspects are being questioned.

And probably feel it to sully the reputation of their golf god.

 

[Erik_K]

I don't think you even need to question the science at these various websites. Hell, I remember one guy some years ago trying to ask questions from his point of view (he was a lefty). Since HK wrote the TGM book from a righty's perspective, the poster was asked (politely mind you) to only phrase the questions from a right-handed golfer's point of view. That's a minor knit, but if that's kind of thing that gets their attention I can only imagine what happens when you review trackman data that contradicts something Homer wrote down.

Erik

 

[KOC]

​

​

Rather interestingly, concurrently, Gerry Hogan, a well known Aussie golf instructor, author of the intriguing book - 'The Hogan Golf Manual of Human Performance GOLF - was invited to participate in a special thread, dedicated to him, to answer questions. However like me it a only lasted for a few days.


mandrin

It might be you also.... Mandrin said about Gerry Hogan at that forum:


From these, and other similar remarks, it is clear that he is teaching golf, based on science. However it is clear that he is not quite up to par with science, re to angular momentum, considering his claim on page 19 :

"Contrary to what most golfers believe, you can’t generate power in the downswing."

The downswing merely releases and transmits the power that was stored when you turned your torso in the backswing. Technically, the secret of the golf swing is to lose as little as possible of this power in the transfer from torso to clubhead, which is why I speak of the conservation of angular momentum.’

Above is wrong.

 

[mandrin]

It might be you also.... Mandrin said about Gerry Hogan at that forum:


From these, and other similar remarks, it is clear that he is teaching golf, based on science. However it is clear that he is not quite up to par with science, re to angular momentum, considering his claim on page 19 :

"Contrary to what most golfers believe, you can’t generate power in the downswing."

The downswing merely releases and transmits the power that was stored when you turned your torso in the backswing. Technically, the secret of the golf swing is to lose as little as possible of this power in the transfer from torso to clubhead, which is why I speak of the conservation of angular momentum.’

Above is wrong.

KOC,

What actually is your point?

You forgot to include Gerry Hogan's statements mentioned in my post from which you copy/pasted your lines.

“ During my own decades of work and research there were countless times when I knew that I had it all worked out only to find some area of some science, no matter how remote, that tore it all down, just as a sudden wind will tear down a house of cards.”

'I have conducted my research in exactly the same way that I conducted my Police Career…without fear or favour. Only the TRUTH is sacred and the seeker must follow obediently where the evidence may choose to lead you. Never ever search of support for your own pre-conceived thoughts and opinions or those of others."

I do entirely agree with these ideas. Refreshing and truly scientific approach, so different from the petty closed shop operation characteristic with TGM zealots.

However we are all humans and prone to make mistakes, hence this includes Gerry Hogan and perhaps even mandrin.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Hi mandrin, welcome back. I hope to meet you one day.

John H, badass avatar!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Our Dear Friend Returns!!!

I will never be able to repay you.

You dragged me out of the Dark Ages, and into the light of real science.

And now you return!!!

Thanks for everything, Mandrin.

One day, I'll win a big award and mention you by name.

You are always welcome here, and I know you know that.

We will make SURE of proper time and attention to your posts and threads, as I am getting a bit bored of fighting cultists on at least two fronts.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Perhaps a rather interesting question to ponder on for any serious student interested in human behavior.

mandrin

I re-read that thread and I think Gerry Hogan was wayyyy overly sensitive. The overwhelming majority of the readers of that thread were interested in what he had to say, one poster questioned if Hogan should have a thread on a predominantly TGM forum and somehow he took offense to that.

Seriously, give me a break. If THAT is offensive to somebody to the point where they 'take their ball and go home', then it's going to be hard for that person to ever accomplish their goals as an instructor. Furthermore, it's tough to take somebody who gets offended like that seriously for the mere point that anybody with an open ear would be afraid to ask questions and challenge the instructor for in fear they would get offended.

Let me be clear, I am not knocking anybody on this site and I am interested in Gerry Hogan's teachings. But this wasn't the best example of the 'Dark Ages' when somebody gets offended virtually over something some miniscule.





3JACK

 

[TROYNYGOLFER]

Chip,

Homer Kelley based his philosophy heavily on 'science'.

One has therefore a mix of golf and 'science'.

There is a semi religious cult like group adhering to his ideas,

and believe that anything important in golf is said and done in TGM.

Past, present, future, any golf swing at all - no need for further search.

They hate it when the science aspects are being questioned.

And probably feel it to sully the reputation of their golf god.

Mandrin, Ned Ludd (remember Luddites?) pioneered this philosophy in the 19th century, and it persists in every modern endeavor. Ever try debating a global warming apostle with science? Would that "other site" happen to be an Aussie site dominated by one particular instructor? If so, they do serve some purpose; it was there I first heard the name Brian Manzella and it led me here.

 

[ej20]

Chip,

Homer Kelley based his philosophy heavily on 'science'.

One has therefore a mix of golf and 'science'.

There is a semi religious cult like group adhering to his ideas,

and believe that anything important in golf is said and done in TGM.

Past, present, future, any golf swing at all - no need for further search.

They hate it when the science aspects are being questioned.

And probably feel it to sully the reputation of their golf god.

I actually don't mind if they are indeed cultist and truly believe the book is the truth and the final word in golf theory.That's entirely their problem......

I suspect however,there is a certain sector of the TGM crowd that knows some of the science is dubious but don't like people questioning them over it because they could lose potential customers,as the biggest selling point is the science.

Although the book is full of great ideas,it is incredibily difficult to understand unless you are a 24/7 golf junkie,even then most of them bicker over differing personal interpretations.The average weekend warrior would only be attracted to TGM because of the science wow factor.

 

[Jon Hardesty]

Pseudo-Science!

 

[mandrin]

I will never be able to repay you.

You dragged me out of the Dark Ages, and into the light of real science.

And now you return!!!

Thanks for everything, Mandrin.

One day, I'll win a big award and mention you by name.

You are always welcome here, and I know you know that.

We will make SURE of proper time and attention to your posts and threads, as I am getting a bit bored of fighting cultists on at least two fronts.

Brian,

Since I joined in 2003 things have changed quite a bit. You are very quick to adept/learn and that probably makes you eventually be on top.

Initially everybody wanted to see me burn at the stake and/or be dragged over hot coal. Golfers, surprisingly, can be quite cruel.

Told my wife during that time to be rather careful to open the door for anyone carrying a little yellow book in his hands as some threatened to track me down.

Actually it was quite fun. I felt like I had to shoot from the hips fast and accurate to keep everyone at a safe distance.

Intellectual honesty is becoming a rare commodity these days but giving credit as you just did proves it is still around .