Do upright swings hit the ball higher?

[birly-shirly]

Traditionally, I think it was thought that they did.

I think now we have a better understanding of the impact factors that would result in more or less height.

I would say:

greater dynamic loft = higher launch therefore more height;
same dynamic loft but a more acute angle of attack = marginally (probably indistinguishably) lower launch but greater spin loft therefore more lift on ball and greater height;
greater clubhead speed = same launch = higher ball speed and higher spin, therefore a more distant and higher apex.

Is there anything in swinging more upright that leads to one or more of these scenarios?

 

[Kevin Shields]

The width required in high performance upright swings lends itself to a shallower impact which could produce less de-lofting....could, mind you. 1997 Tiger would be a good example.

 

[siksta]

Birly

The backswing should have nothing to do with trajectory in a full swing? The downswing would be more of a cause than the backswing.
Unless i misunderstood the question

 

[birly-shirly]

Kevin - I get the link between width and the shallower impact, thanks.

Why do you say that (high performance) upright swings require more width? Is this similar to Jim Hardy's analogy of the plane as a wheel - the more vertical the plane the more oblique impact becomes?

 

[birly-shirly]

Birly

The backswing should have nothing to do with trajectory in a full swing? The downswing would be more of a cause than the backswing.
Unless i misunderstood the question

siksta - "nothing" to do with trajectory? you really don't think the backswing influences the downswing and impact factors? I don't think the downswing retraces the backswing or anything like that. Of course, loops and shifts happen. But don't you think the position that you arrive in at the top of the swing has an influence on the quality of your impact?

 

[gmbtempe]

Do upright swings tend to promote more under plane? Under plane usually would lead to less angle of attack I believe.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Upright or Uptight?

If you legitimately had a high Vertical Swing Plane the MORE you hit down, the more DOWN it would be vs. a low Vertical Swing Plane.

The more downward the strike, the lower the bottom vector of the D-Plane will be, and ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL the lower the ball will go.

But Brian, But Brian!!!!.....Upright Swingers tend to hit the ball higher than normal!!!!

If you have LESS downward, and LESS forward lean, and MORE clubhead speed—and many upright swinger had at least 2 of 3—the ball will go higher.

 

[birly-shirly]

[...]
If you have LESS downward, and LESS forward lean, and MORE clubhead speed—and many upright swinger had at least 2 of 3—the ball will go higher.

Less fwd lean would tend to go with a less downward attack, no?

Any chance you could tell a little more as to why many upright swingers have at least 2 of these 3?

(Though if it avoids unnecessary controversy, we can leave clubhead speed to one side for now!)

Thanks
BS

 

[siksta]

Birly

But don't you think the position that you arrive in at the top of the swing has an influence on the quality of your impact?

No never never never and what i mean by that is if were looking at top positions which i dont teach positions and we put Aoki say next to Doug Sanders at the top i think both of our heads would spin and both had quality impact. Also if a top position guaranteed a certain influence of quality impact we would both bottle it and retire.
Now are we talking hand positions high vs med vs low, are we talking laid off vs parallel to line vs across the line,are we talking cupped wrist vs flat vs bowed,arms across the chest, pinned tight or extended,or inside takeaway vs down the line vs outside, arms high vs med vs low. All the types above have won on tour .
Is there a optimal way yes for some. After watching Two gloves today would ya copy that move?
I'm just trying to understand why your top position quarantees a certain strike of impact when history shows me otherwise?I know alot of teachers that teach backswing backswing top positions but if i watch Trevino,Nicklaus, Kuchar,Hogan,Doyle,Watson. i see alot of different patterns. Thank You John

 

[birly-shirly]

Siksta

You're reading me as if I'm saying that a particular position at the top correlates directly with a particular impact, or that there is only one correct position at the top. That's not my issue at all.

But if you take a particular golfer and you modify their position at the top, don't you think that might have a knock-on effect on their ballstriking?

In my personal experience, it does. I'm not claiming a magic formula or anything - but I absolutely believe there are consequences.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Do upright swings tend to promote more under plane? Under plane usually would lead to less angle of attack I believe.

Upright swings promote a shaft that counter rotates and could fall inside if some factors arent taken into account. A flatter swing, although promotes a squaring shaft, could just as easily fall underplane depending on handpath and rear shoulder movement.

 

[Dariusz J.]

A flatter swing, although promotes a squaring shaft, could just as easily fall underplane depending on handpath and rear shoulder movement.

I do not understand this statement. Looks like TGM mumbling, sorry Kev. The lower the plane is the easier is to be on plane. Correct me, please, if I am wrong.

Cheers

 

[footwedge]

I do not understand this statement. Looks like TGM mumbling, sorry Kev. The lower the plane is the easier is to be on plane. Correct me, please, if I am wrong.

Cheers

For who?

 

[Kevin Shields]

I do not understand this statement. Looks like TGM mumbling, sorry Kev. The lower the plane is the easier is to be on plane. Correct me, please, if I am wrong.

Cheers

Whats not to understand? Whats on plane mean, anyway? A lower plane can drop under quite easily. You cannot say its easier to be "on plane" the lower the angle. Tell that to someone with alot of axis tilt or hands that move away from the body.

Whats TGM about what I said?

 

[Dariusz J.]

A lower plane can drop under quite easily.

Examples, please. Tell me a single example when lowering plane resulted in dropping under. Subcanscious mind won't allow it, I believe.

Whats TGM about what I said?

Well, unability to diversify planes. IMHO.

Cheers

 

[footwedge]

Examples, please. Tell me a single example when lowering plane resulted in dropping under. Subcanscious mind won't allow it, I believe.



Well, unability to diversify planes. IMHO.

Cheers

Tell me how you know what a complete strangers subconscious mind will let happen or not happen. Is there a scientific study that has been done to show what you claim. Or this is your belief?

 

[Dariusz J.]

Tell me how you know what a complete strangers subconscious mind will let happen or not happen. Is there a scientific study that has been done to show what you claim. Or this is your belief?

Never put another question if you are not capable to formulate the answer for the previous one. It is not in a good tone, moreover, not in a tone for science. So much for your provocation.

Cheers

 

[footwedge]

Never put another question if you are not capable to formulate the answer for the previous one. It is not in a good tone, moreover, not in a tone for science. So much for your provocation.

Cheers

It's a legit question about your claim. I guess you don't have an answer or proof of your assertion. Never put forth a claim that your not willing to explain or give reasonable answers to when aked about them on a public forum. Otherwise they don't hold any weight, it's just an opinion not based on any real evidence.

So just say imo or if it's a scientific fact provide some actual proof.

 

[natep]

Examples, please. Tell me a single example when lowering plane resulted in dropping under. Subcanscious mind won't allow it, I believe.



Well, unability to diversify planes. IMHO.

Cheers

Are you saying that it's impossible to drop the club under plane?

Or are you saying that its your opinion that the plane cant be too shallow?

IMO if you lay it off super shallow you have to compensate for that move.

 

[spktho]

Without having the luxury of working with Trackman and reading threads similar to this one I have a few questions that may clear some things up for me.

Would this op question be better asked in Trackman terms of low vsp vs. higher vsp relating to ball flight?

and in light of Kevin and Darius' discussion:

Does a lower vsp tend to result in a more in to out hsp?