Dr. Cary Middlecoff, AUDIO Swing Analysis by Brian Manzella, PGA, G.S.E.D.

[tongzilla]

Nope, mate. Most people are wise enough to accept that Hogan was the best golf ballstriker ever. He did not need to be autistic to hit 100% FIR and 100% GIR on many occasions also under biggest tournaments stress.

Many must mean more than five occasions. Please name 5.

People should be smart enough to see that it was his swing's principles that gave such results. People should not be blind and start to think if those principles can help also in their games.

People should be smart enough to find their OWN pattern which can produce and reproduce the imperatives as consistently as Hogan and Snead.

Sam was not so good a ballstriker since he did not work enough on keeping the clubface perpendicular to the swing arc long enough

Hmmm...do you really think that's why Snead wasn't as good a ball striker as Hogan?

With his natural swing, higher IQ and harder work Snead could be equal to Hogan in ballstriking, I believe, or even better because his bones were healthy.

Can you please back up your claim that Snead had a higher IQ than Hogan.

But Woods ? What kind of beautiful swing he has ? I can admire him for his recovery shots, short game, putting, etc. but not for his very swing that depends in the majority on timing, tempo and is ugly as hell.

ALL swings depends on timing and tempo. Yes, even Sneads. Can you show that Sneads swing requires less "timing" than Woods'?

P.S. I am very curious what place would a Hogan-like swing take in Brian's Matrix.

Hogan moved more towards the right of the matrix (NHA) as his career progressed.

 

[birdie_man]

Just thinking out loud here, but what if the players considered among the best ball strikers (Hogan, Trevino, Moe, whoever else) were the best in spite of their mechanics, and not because of their mechanics?

To me, it has to be both the chicken and the egg.

Surely you must have ability/talent...but you also have to develop it enough. (skillllllZ)

 

[Brian Manzella]

Well....

I am very curious what place would a Hogan-like swing take in Brian's Matrix.

In the 1955 "White Hat" swing of Hogan that I have analyzed on this forum before, http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7429

Hogan just a few things different than the "middle" of the MANZELLA MATRIX.

He had more wrist cock, a shorter arm swing, very slightly more trigger delay, slightly more reserve hips.

But...very close....the rest is "In the book."

 

[Dariusz J.]

Hogan was apparently pretty smart no? BTW I am unsure about this holding the clubface off thing. So you're saying if he delayed his release more and added more FFFFFFATS (Force Across The Shaft) and went to more of a fade???

Yes and no. What I wanted to say is that his clubface was perpendicular to the swing arc much longer than somewhere in the impact zone, both before and after impact. This makes the whole motion less timing-dependent. Pure biomechanics.

Cheers

 

[Dariusz J.]

Many must mean more than five occasions. Please name 5.

No, 'many' should mean more than once, actually. Should have used 'a few' instead 'many' since I don't have an evidence; I've heard about this from guys who claim to witness Hogan live.

People should be smart enough to find their OWN pattern which can produce and reproduce the imperatives as consistently as Hogan and Snead.

True, I agree.


Can you please back up your claim that Snead had a higher IQ than Hogan.

You misunderstood what I said. I rather thought that Snead did not have higher IQ. That's why his 'mental lab' was much poorer than Hogan's.


ALL swings depends on timing and tempo. Yes, even Sneads. Can you show that Sneads swing requires less "timing" than Woods'?

Yes, of course, each swing that brings the clubface square to the swing arc earlier than in impact zone is less timing&tempo-dependent. It does not mean though that it's independent at all, it would be an absurd.

Cheers

 

[Dariusz J.]

In the 1955 "White Hat" swing of Hogan that I have analyzed on this forum before, http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7429

Hogan just a few things different than the "middle" of the MANZELLA MATRIX.

He had more wrist cock, a shorter arm swing, very slightly more trigger delay, slightly more reserve hips.

But...very close....the rest is "In the book."

Brian, when will be the Christmas time for us = when Matrix is ready to be found under the tree ?

I will spent next wonderful hour with your analysis...

Cheers

 

[jeffy]

Jeffy.........

You seem to be pretty adamant about this.....do you know something about why he ACTUALLY won less later on......??

Or are you speculating?

I'm just wondering because while you very well could be onto something (maybe)............and while it's possible that is very well could have contributed...........if you are speculating it pretty much is a guesstimate at best because as is obvious there's tons of things that could cause someone to fall off.

I'm sure you realize this. But maybe you do have more facts?

He had back surgery, from damage sustained by his golf swing, which pretty much ended his career. He finished his life as a cripple. What happened to him is not at all uncommon among players that used their bodies to shallow the swing bottom: Nicklaus walks around like he is 87, not 67. Snead was breaking his age in tour events when he was 67. Monty's back is shot, Norman's back is shot. Davis Love has a chronic bad back. You can look at their swings and see why.

 

[jeffy]

Many must mean more than five occasions. Please name 5.

I would think that five is conservative. We all know about the 1965 Shell match. We know he hit 107 of 108 fairways at the 1953 Open, including qualifying rounds. He missed two fairways and two greens during the final 36 holes at Cherry Hills in 1960.

In Cary Middlecoff's book, "The Golf Swing" he relates this story: In one of Hogan's last tournament appearances, at the Colonial in 1967, when Hogan was 55, an editor from Golf Digest followed all 72 holes he played and evaluated every shot. Amazingly, Hogan took just 141 shots tee to green (an average of 35.25 per round, versus a "par" of 34; Colonial was a par 70) and 140 putts (35 per round). He finished in a tie for third. Of the 141 shots hit tee to green, 139 were rated from well-executed to superbly executed. The other two shots were a drive that missed the fairway by about 5 yards, and a 5-iron shot to a par-3 that missed the green by the same distance. Two misses in 72 holes, that didn't miss by much.

From these stories, it is easy for me to imagine that he hit all the fairways and greens in quite a few competitive rounds.

 

[jeffy]

Cary Middlecoff was one of the best players of all-time.

Often when a player doesn't "fit" with someone's idea of how to make a golf swing, the player has to be criticized in some way.

I say "Baloney"!

Forgive me, Brian, but where did anyone in this thread criticize Middlecoff? Or is that just a random observation?

With Casper, Middlecoff is probably the most underrated player of all time.

 

[birdie_man]

He had back surgery, from damage sustained by his golf swing, which pretty much ended his career. He finished his life as a cripple. What happened to him is not at all uncommon among players that used their bodies to shallow the swing bottom: Nicklaus walks around like he is 87, not 67. Snead was breaking his age in tour events when he was 67. Monty's back is shot, Norman's back is shot. Davis Love has a chronic bad back. You can look at their swings and see why.

Ah well now you're talking. Thanks for the reply.

 

[self-mastery]

In the 1955 "White Hat" swing of Hogan that I have analyzed on this forum before, http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7429

Where would the Power Golf era Hogan stand within the matrix?

Why do fools insist that Hogan had a secret?

Hard work+Talent= Great ballstriking.

My list:
1) Snead
2) Woods
3) Nicklaus
4) Hogan

Has very little to do with who I think has the best swing. Instead, it is based on who I think is the best player. I leave judging swings based on aesthetics to people that get their golf advice from magazines, TGC, and to guys that think that 5 page threads on the physics of the swing improves scores.

He who wins the most is the best player.

Video killed the PGA star!

 

[jimmyt]

He had back surgery, from damage sustained by his golf swing, which pretty much ended his career. He finished his life as a cripple. What happened to him is not at all uncommon among players that used their bodies to shallow the swing bottom: Nicklaus walks around like he is 87, not 67. Snead was breaking his age in tour events when he was 67. Monty's back is shot, Norman's back is shot. Davis Love has a chronic bad back. You can look at their swings and see why.

Jeffy, I can name 2 guys that in their day had two of the most beautiful swings out there and they had back issues. Steve Elkington & Tom Purtzer. I don't believe with any degree of certainty that you can say it was the golf swing as the "root" cause.

I contend that some people are predisposed, then the golf swing will either help or hurt. If your predisposed then the way the golf club is swung just does not matter.

 

[jeffy]

Jeffy, I can name 2 guys that in their day had two of the most beautiful swings out there and they had back issues. Steve Elkington & Tom Purtzer. I don't believe with any degree of certainty that you can say it was the golf swing as the "root" cause.

I contend that some people are predisposed, then the golf swing will either help or hurt. If your predisposed then the way the golf club is swung just does not matter.

I don't think it is that hard. Players that use an open stance with the long clubs have been predisposed to chronic back problems: Trevino, Zinger, Couples, Nicklaus.

Players with a reverse-C, or who otherwise block the hips through impact, have also been predisposed to chronic lower back problems: Gulbis, Nicklaus again, Monty, Greg Norman, Love, Middlecoff, Carol Mann.

Academic research concluded that the incidence of lower back problems increased after the introduction of the "x-factor" theory (thanks, Jim!).

Snead, Hogan and Boros had closed stances and did not reverse-C. They played great golf into their 50's.

Two players with terrible backs, Jake and Pooley, changed their swings so their backs didn't hurt anymore and resumed their tour careers.

It's not rocket science or voodoo. It's right there if you're willing to look at it.

 

[jimmyt]

I would be willing to look at documented proof. Your right its not rocket science. Yet you make no comment about being predisposed because of the way your own particular DNA is wired. Other than giving names of people with back problems you have provided "zero" documented proof that it was their golf swings that caused it.

There is no right or wrong. You have given examples of back injuries. My point is would those injuries have occured regardless of how they swung a golf club. It also seems to me that a pro's practice regiment of being bent over and stressing those muscles and liagaments for 5-6 hours a day may be a factor to injury.

 

[jeffy]

I would be willing to look at documented proof. Your right its not rocket science. Yet you make no comment about being predisposed because of the way your own particular DNA is wired. Other than giving names of people with back problems you have provided "zero" documented proof that it was their golf swings that caused it.

There is no right or wrong. You have given examples of back injuries. My point is would those injuries have occured regardless of how they swung a golf club. It also seems to me that a pro's practice regiment of being bent over and stressing those muscles and liagaments for 5-6 hours a day may be a factor to injury.

You're starting to sound like JeffMann. No, I haven't interviewed their doctors or reviewed their medical files, but this isn't a PhD dissertation: it's an on-line golf forum. If you need documented proof, do some research of your own: it's out there. Go talk to some of the players mentioned or their coaches: I have.

As far as practice and play being a factor: of course it is. These injuries don't tend to show up in slow swinging amateurs.

 

[birdie_man]

Why do fools insist that Hogan had a secret?

Probably cause he built it up in their minds. (on purpose) I could be wrong. Or maybe it was a key move he discovered that really "sealed it" for HIM. (so for him, it had significance)

The only thing I can get out of it is that it could be and probably is a culmination of a lot of things. Through hard work.

Swing knowledge (both general and personal) and "mental management."

My list:
1) Snead
2) Woods
3) Nicklaus
4) Hogan

Has very little to do with who I think has the best swing. Instead, it is based on who I think is the best player.

He who wins the most is the best player.

What if someone was so obscenely good that they went out and won every tournament on the PGA Tour for a whole year.......and then made Tiger Woods cry because his plans were being ruined....and then retire. (vs. losing it- like a Duval)

(NOTE: THEORETICAL SITUATION )

You of course would STILL not hold Sam Snead's record for lifetime PGA Tour wins but could have beat the pants off Sam Snead and anyone else you could bring back from the grave and resurrect in their prime.

Who is the best player?

Win ratio and dominance must count for something no?

Video killed the PGA star!

I can see this for sure.

 

[matt kluck]

Nicklaus in his prime used a 37", 3* upright five iron.

I don't think it is that hard. Players that use an open stance with the long clubs have been predisposed to chronic back problems: Trevino, Zinger, Couples, Nicklaus.

Players with a reverse-C, or who otherwise block the hips through impact, have also been predisposed to chronic lower back problems: Gulbis, Nicklaus again, Monty, Greg Norman, Love, Middlecoff, Carol Mann.

Academic research concluded that the incidence of lower back problems increased after the introduction of the "x-factor" theory (thanks, Jim!).

Snead, Hogan and Boros had closed stances and did not reverse-C. They played great golf into their 50's.

Two players with terrible backs, Jake and Pooley, changed their swings so their backs didn't hurt anymore and resumed their tour careers.

It's not rocket science or voodoo. It's right there if you're willing to look at it.