Draw with flat clubs as a simple pattern

[billmckinneygolf]

Anyone out there ever try to hit hundreds of draws in a row with a flat lie angle and a flat swing plane angle? I've been doing it for a few days and it feels like the best I've ever hit it in my life. I've used flat clubs before but never tried to hit all draws.
I have always taught ball flights, but since playing with Fred Funk I've been trying to make one repeatable shape and it's working with both my students' and my own game.

 

[dbl]

Is that cheating? Flat lie would tend to go right, so are you REALLY putting hook action on? I'm not sure the flat swing plane effect....maybe less down (so you could aim less left with irons)?

 

[billmckinneygolf]

Like cheating indeed! It is a non-rolling wrist yet full-release feel..sustained...flush divot but not too deep. The draw is caused by the attack path and face angle--or as Tattoo used to say, D Plane, D Plane!

 

[cwdlaw223]

Why does a flat lie angle tend to cause the ball go to the right? I thought the flatter the lie angle the more the club path would be to the right on the U plane (than a more upright lie angle).

 

[dbl]

I am just going with the normal to the face..it points righter than a club with a proper lie. It's like the ball is below your feet.

So with the clubs helping like that...then play draw to counteract.

 

[cwdlaw223]

I thought the flatter the swing plane the more one needs to swing left and the more the path will be to the right on the U plane (in comparrison to a more upright plane). Therefore, if a lie angle is flatter it will allow one to swing flatter and hence, coming down the U plane the club path will be more to the right (than a swing with a more upright lie angle (causing a steeper VSP)).

I also thought the lie angle was more about making sure good contact with the ground (no toe or heel digging). If a club is flattened without a change in the lie angle it will point to the right but the toe will also come off the ground.

Maybe the lie angle is a small part of the vertical swing plane and club path???

 

[savydan]

Watch the first minute of this video:

YouTube - brianmanzella's Channel

 

[dbl]

The U plane isn't something real, that the club comes down. It is a composite of the VSP and the downward component (for irons), and for straight shot has a straight base line to the target. I do agree for flatter swingers that the golfer would aim more left.

However, the flatter lies of the club (in my mind) then tilts the d plane rightward which would be a fade, so you hit it with a draw (close the face) to counteract for a straight shot.

One assumption is just how flat those clubs were bent, and how flat is the golfer making his swing. I'm assuming the clubs are net flatter than his swing plane change.

- -

As to the technique, I'm thinking that if a player has a problem holding off releasing on shots, and needs to really release fully, that this can help prevent overdoing.

However, I'm not going to bend my clubs to try it!

 

[cwdlaw223]

dbl -

How does a flatter lie angle tilt the d plane to the right? I don't understand.

I wonder if the lie angle just plays a small part of the overall U plane and I'm making too much of an issue with the lie angle. Just curious.

I've found that I hit the ball more to the left with higher lie angles and I don't know why.

 

[dannyc]

dbl -

How does a flatter lie angle tilt the d plane to the right? I don't understand.

I wonder if the lie angle just plays a small part of the overall U plane and I'm making too much of an issue with the lie angle. Just curious.

I've found that I hit the ball more to the left with higher lie angles and I don't know why.

if you put one of those magnetic lie angle tools on the face and move the shaft up and down, the face angle points in different directions. the higher the loft, the more the face angle changes. if the lie angles are too upright, the face will point left.

if you put "magnetic lie tool angle" or something similar in you tube, you'll see some explanations.

 

[weese]

I went on a lie angle board with a club fitter and found out that I was hitting everything towards the toe portion of the club so had my clubs bent 3* upright to compensate. I don't think it did my game any good. In fact I think it made me swing worse because I just made the club compensate for a faulty action. I knew I should be coming in flatter through impact but just couldn't do it physically.

So one day, I took my irons over to a shop and told the technician to bend them 5* flat. The first time I played with them, I felt like Hubert Green at address. The first round was tragic, and I hit everything to the right.

However, I have stuck with the flat lie angle and my swing has slowly become better because of the flat clubs. The feeling I have with the flat lies is that it requires a harder and stronger move through impact just to square the face. The face just doesn't seem to want to turn. Its a liberating feeling playing golf that way, swinging hard knowing the ball won't pull or hook.

 

[Bigwill]

Anyone out there ever try to hit hundreds of draws in a row with a flat lie angle and a flat swing plane angle? I've been doing it for a few days and it feels like the best I've ever hit it in my life. I've used flat clubs before but never tried to hit all draws.
I have always taught ball flights, but since playing with Fred Funk I've been trying to make one repeatable shape and it's working with both my students' and my own game.

I did something like this earlier this year and had a great round. Also hit it more solidly than I ever have.

 

[billmckinneygolf]

I also play left-handed sometimes, and I couldn't make it work at all...standard lie angle was much better. I think I wouldn't do this for my clients....but for anyone who hits hosel-rockets, it's probably because your clubs are tooooo upright.
The divots are not toe-deep with the newly flattened (2dg) irons. I adapted my swing to it.
BTW, Michael Allen of the Sr. Tour's clubs are 6 dg flat...which inspired me to try it.
And BIGWILL: did you keep your clubs like that or go back?

 

[twitch127]

Interesting post Bill. Do you think that the flat lie angle made you adjust you swing plane and club delivery - which ultimately made your body work a bit harder through the ball? What was your bad shot before you made these adjustments.?

 

[birdie_man]

I used some older Titleists of some guy's when I was in AZ. They were flat. (older specs)

Could hardly hit them with my current grip. (using my normal fade swing)

Had to switch to a stronger grip (stil full rolling it) to get my normal fade.

It went pretty nice though.

I've always wanted to fool around with flatter clubs.

Most are more upright today. Lots of ppl seem to be fit that way as well. (by whoever)

Always wondered about Hogan too. (The Hoganus Factorus) He was shorter than I but I take it his clubs were flat as well...?

 

[birdie_man]

Why flat for less shanks Bill?

You'd be able to open em less w/o hooking it?

Don't have to work "under" to get the club on it's lie angle at impacT??

 

[Bigwill]

I also play left-handed sometimes, and I couldn't make it work at all...standard lie angle was much better. I think I wouldn't do this for my clients....but for anyone who hits hosel-rockets, it's probably because your clubs are tooooo upright.
The divots are not toe-deep with the newly flattened (2dg) irons. I adapted my swing to it.
BTW, Michael Allen of the Sr. Tour's clubs are 6 dg flat...which inspired me to try it.
And BIGWILL: did you keep your clubs like that or go back?

They weren't mine; borrowed 'em, so I went back. But, even though I was fit into clubs that were 3* upright (a few years ago), standard or slightly flatter clubs look better at address to me than mine, so I wanted to see how they worked. As for the drawing the ball thing, I'd been working on trying to intentionally draw the ball on every shot at a range session before the round, and I hit the ball much more solidly trying to swing at it like a ferris wheel. Don't really know why it worked for me. Just know that I hit it well. Maybe I need to get mine bent...

 

[billmckinneygolf]

Hogan's clubs were very flat. O'Grady's are 4 flat. Michael Allen's are 6 flat. I bet Trevino's were a few down too...not sure of the numbers.
The reason for fewer shanks (for those who do that) is that 1. the whole sole is flush instead of just the heel and 2. flatter clubs promote "hands down in the gutter, not up on the curb", i.e. over the plane.
Interesting answers so far. I'd encourage you golf nuts out there to find an iron about 3 flat, swing on a flat plane angle with a strong-ish grip, and hit exclusively draws without a lot of flippy-rolly-wristy. AND I imagine if any of you are like I am--you'll start thinking about ball flight instead of tinkering and obsessing with your swings.

 

[Matt Bryda]

So anyone out there have a guess as to what stock lie angle of a 6 iron from 1980 might have been?

Wondering if golf club companies started to make irons with a slightly more upright lie angle since the 80's.

Matt

 

[mjstrong]

So anyone out there have a guess as to what stock lie angle of a 6 iron from 1980 might have been?

Wondering if golf club companies started to make irons with a slightly more upright lie angle since the 80's.

Matt

They definitely have. It's to cater to the masses. Same reason that clubs now have stronger lofts. The public wanted to hit it further, and slice it less. So, the club manufacturers gradually gave them stronger lots and more upright lies. Bingo, irons go further and slice less.