Dyamic Loft for Drivers
- Thread starter langer
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
With a levelish to slightly up attack angle, launch angle of 11 degrees, ball speed 165, spin rate 2500 with an 8 degree driver my dynamic loft is around 13-14 degrees.
Very subject dependent. I can tell you that if you're hitting down on it a lot, the loft better not be too high.
Very subject dependent. I can tell you that if you're hitting down on it a lot, the loft better not be too high.
That is my problem, am hitting up 5 but dynamic loft is 16 on a 10 degrees loft.
Spin is around 2600, but the height is over 36 meters. Have been told to get a lower lofted driver but i do not think that is a good idea.
When i get the dynamic loft down i loose my angle of attack
langer -
Are you trying to hit the driver near the top of the face? I think that would generate a higher dynamic loft (veritical gear effect). It's a lot harder to change your swing for optimal impact conditions than your clubs. Many, many variables in play (including the type of ball that you're using). You might be hitting up too much. 5* up is A LOT, especially if there's a little flipping action which will add to you dynamic loft.
Are you trying to hit the driver near the top of the face? I think that would generate a higher dynamic loft (veritical gear effect). It's a lot harder to change your swing for optimal impact conditions than your clubs. Many, many variables in play (including the type of ball that you're using). You might be hitting up too much. 5* up is A LOT, especially if there's a little flipping action which will add to you dynamic loft.
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i had similar numbers with my 9.5* driver. went to a 7* and gained 20 yards. i'm not one to buy equipment frivolously to "fix" my golf game but there are some instances where the right gear makes all the difference. this sounds like it might be one of those instances.
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SteveT
Guest
Since you mention the "higher" dynamic loft together with "vertical gear effect", can you help me with these factors?
I can see a higher dynamic loft hitting towards the top of a driver with bulge and roll, but I have difficulty with vertical gear effect.
Horizontal gear effect will impose a spin that will bring the ball back towards a centered flight.... so won't hitting high on the driver face bring the ball DOWN since the driver CofG is below the higher impact point.. and in effect creating additional topspin?
Conversely, if you are able to impact the ball flush but lower in the driver face so the ball CofG is lower than the driver CofG, would you create underspin and a ballooning ball flight? I don't know if this can be done physically, only theoretically. Hitting the ball thin with the driver leading edge would not create a vertical gear effect because the impact would be compromised.
Does vertical gear effect show up on TM/FS ... just asking..??
SteveT -
I'll defer to Brian about vertical gear effect and Trackman. I only know enough to be dangerous and will defer to guys like Tom Wishon when it comes to golf equipment.
However, the vertical gear effect is the "counter" to the increased or decreased loft. For example, if you hit the ball above the COG of the driver there will be more loft than with a square hit. In order to counter that increased loft that type of shot should have less spin. The opposite is true if the ball is hit below the COG (less dynamic loft, more spin to get the ball up). There are many, many factors in play when looking at the numbers. There is no reading for gear effect on Trackman.
I wonder whether there is vertical gear effort for irons because irons don't have any roll like a driver would that changes the static loft.
I'll defer to Brian about vertical gear effect and Trackman. I only know enough to be dangerous and will defer to guys like Tom Wishon when it comes to golf equipment.
However, the vertical gear effect is the "counter" to the increased or decreased loft. For example, if you hit the ball above the COG of the driver there will be more loft than with a square hit. In order to counter that increased loft that type of shot should have less spin. The opposite is true if the ball is hit below the COG (less dynamic loft, more spin to get the ball up). There are many, many factors in play when looking at the numbers. There is no reading for gear effect on Trackman.
I wonder whether there is vertical gear effort for irons because irons don't have any roll like a driver would that changes the static loft.
birly-shirly
New
if you really understand horizontal gear effect, then I think you'll understand vertical gear effect too. 'same mechanism.
having said that, bandying around terms like "additional topspin" might lead some folks to think that your grasp of golf science and impact dynamics isn't all it's cracked up to be.
or were you just throwing around some loose metaphorical language to keep the ignorant plebs amused whilst you lead the march into enlightenment?
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SteveT
Guest
Perhaps you could oblige the forum by explaining why you believe my "grasp of golf science and impact dynamics isn't all it's cracked up to be".... rather than just spuriously floating that suggestions for the science-haters to gloat over.
One of us could be wrong.... I could be wrong, but I doubt it....
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birly-shirly
New
well there's additional topspin, there's topspin and then there are golf shots. can you guess which 2 are found on the tennis court?
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SteveT
Guest
Aaaah... I see where you're confused. Let me help you. Horizontal gear effect creates additional sidespin, while vertical gear effect creates "counter" topspin to the normal underspin for golf clubs thus reducing the net overall spin.
Perhaps I incorrectly assumed you were able to visualize the "gear effect" between the ball and club CofG and in which direction that corrective spin rotates the ball.... in the vertical plane of course.
Sorry, my bad ....
SteveT -
There's no such thing as sidespin. There's spin and axis tilt. (Many PGA teaching pros believe there can be backspin and sidespin). When a ball is hit the ball is spinning backwards and the axis it's spinning on is either tilted or not. Tilt the axis enough and you get duck hooks and slices. There's only one spin.
There's no such thing as sidespin. There's spin and axis tilt. (Many PGA teaching pros believe there can be backspin and sidespin). When a ball is hit the ball is spinning backwards and the axis it's spinning on is either tilted or not. Tilt the axis enough and you get duck hooks and slices. There's only one spin.
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SteveT
Guest
I know there is only one "resultant" spin to the ball, but if you isolate the horizontal or vertical gear effect that may be applied to the ball, their influence on the ball is a "side-spin" component for horizontal gear effect and a "topspin" component for vertical gear effect on high face impact. Of course there is no pure side-spin or actual topspin, but the gear effect influence affects the final resultant ball spin and axis tilt which is always a resultant backspin and axis tilt.
Now, what else in the D-plane contributes to axis tilt?
I suggest Trackman's articles concerning axis tilt. Many variables in play and they'll explain better than I can. I could just say the interaction of two three dimensional forces tilt the axis, but that isn't that helpful. If someone speaks in terms of sidespin and topspin that implies a lack of precision in their thinking and possible confusion. I still would like to know if there is vertical gear effect with irons. I suspect it's slight, but still interested in the answer.
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SteveT
Guest
Let's devise an experiment to isolate gear effect spins. Assume you have a zero degree loft driver with a bulge and roll to impede gear effect. Let's also assume the driver head CofG is located behind the center of the face and deep in the head for gear effect.
If you hit the ball flush with this driver and the clubhead path, and both CofGs of ball and clubhead are in line, you will get zero spin and the ball will initially follow a vector perpendicular to the clubface. Correct?! If you have the ball on a long tee and the clubhead path is say 10º upwards, the initial ball path vector will be 10º up as well.
Now if impact is say 1" towards the toe, gear effect will impart a pure sidespin that will bring the ball back to the clubhead path target line. Conversely, if you hit towards the heel the same will happen with a reversed side spin. Correct?!
Now let's have impact above the center of the clubface for vertical gear effect, what happen then? The gear effect will be pure TOPSPIN and the ball will dip down to the clubhead path target line. Correct?!
So what I was telling you is that vertical gear effect topspin induces a COUNTER ROTATION to the normal backspin of a lofted driver, thus reducing the NET RESULTANT backspin. I called it a "topspin component" of the final resultant backspin that is registered on Trackman. Obviously, the lofted club backspin is much greater than the vertical gear effect "topspin" or counter rotation.
If I'm wrong, please correct my explanation. Thanks.
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Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Steve, i understand what you're saying but explaining something with an incorrect term or a term you've made up that people co-notate with "impossible" (topspin in golf) maybe you should re-think your term; just sayn'
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SteveT
Guest
Steve, i understand what you're saying but explaining something with an incorrect term or a term you've made up that people co-notate with "impossible" (topspin in golf) maybe you should re-think your term; just sayn'
But haven't I just proven to you that "topspin" is possible in golf... if you have the special equipment and an inline swing path and using correct terminology?
I appreciate what may be confusing is the concept of "resultant" backspin where the normal backspin by a lofted driver is subject to a "counter-spin" (a 'topspin' or a 'side-spin') because of the horizontal or vertical gear effect.
If you want to appreciate 'science' you must open your mind to new and contradicting concepts... just like Jorgenson's D-plane and Nesbit's kinetic analysis of the golfswing. Gear effect is an old and well known concept.
Please explain to me how a ball can spin two different ways on one axis? That's the implication of your test. Or, how there can be "topsin" and then microseconds later backspin? Your bear the burden of proof asserting the positive.
Let's try another test. Let's put a circle and a square together. You get a square circle but that's impossible. Certain things cannot be separated. Using terms like topspin and side spin show a lack of precision regarding impact and the effect upon the ball. If you can show me two spins on a ball simultaneously you might have something.
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