Dyamic Loft for Drivers

[SteveT]

Please explain to me how a ball can spin two different ways on one axis? That's the implication of your test.

Let's try another test. Let's put a circle and a square together. You get a square circle but that's impossible. Certain things cannot be separated. Using terms like topspin and side spin show a lack of precision regarding impact and the effect upon the ball. If you can show me two spins on a ball simultaneously you might have something.

NOOOOOOO....!!!!!! What I'm trying to explain to you is that driver loft backspin and vertical gear effect "counter-spin" (aka topspin torque) resolve themselves into a net resultant backspin on an axis that accommodates all the forces applied on the ball.

If you impact above the driver geometric center, the ball encounters an additional loft because of roll ... plus... the vertical gear effect counterspin. Do you deny there is a vertical gear effect counterspin to the loft backspin?

The ball doesn't spin in two different axis... all the effects resolve themselves into one axis and one spin.... bulge and roll loft plus vertical gear effect = final resultant spin and axis.

 

[cwdlaw223]

NOOOOOOO....!!!!!! What I'm trying to explain to you is that driver loft backspin and vertical gear effect "counter-spin" (aka topspin torque) resolve themselves into a net resultant backspin on an axis that accommodates all the forces applied on the ball.

If you impact above the driver geometric center, the ball encounters an additional loft because of bulge and roll ... plus... the vertical gear effect counterspin. Do you deny there is a vertical gear effect counterspin to the loft backspin?

The ball doesn't spin in two different axis... all the effects resolve themselves into one axis and one spin.... bulge and roll loft plus vertical gear effect = final resultant spin and axis.

So upon what do you base your conclusion? Your own logic and reasoning of impact? So you believe that there is a period of time in space where two spins are affecting the ball before final spin?

I deny counter spin because of a lack of proof. I don't assert such spin exists. Possible? Maybe. Where's the proof of your position?

The Internet pictures you see of gear effect isn't proof there's a preliminary spin and final spin. Who agrees with you?

 

[SteveT]

So upon what do you base your conclusion? Your own logic and reasoning of impact? So you believe that there is a period of time in space where two spins are affecting the ball before final spin?

I deny counter spin because of a lack of proof. I don't assert such spin exists. Possible? Maybe. Where's the proof of your position?

The Internet pictures you see of gear effect isn't proof there's a preliminary spin and final spin. Who agrees with you?

Look at these pictures showing horizontal and vertical gear effects:

Look at the last picture showing vertical gear effect when hit above the the club CofG.

See the ball rotating counter-clockwise... or... with a TOPSPIN torque.

The ball doesn't 'topspin' because the 'loft' spin is very high, but the vertical gear effect 'topspin' will reduce the net resultant final spin of the ball coming off the club face.

That's how I see it.... hope that helps.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Where did you come up with the term "topsin torque"? Those pictures are symbolic, but the language used in those pictures is misleading. Not sure how there is pre-final spin and final spin on the ball at impact. At some point spin might become irreducibly complex. The reduction of spin might be due to something other than "topspin" being asserted on the ball to counter the backspin.

 

[birly-shirly]

Sorry Steve - first you talk about "additional topspin" which implies that some drives have topspin in the first place.

Then you post something like "Assume you have a zero degree loft driver with a bulge and roll to impart gear effect." Sorry again, bulge and roll don't impart gear effect.

You're either way out of your depth on this - or you don't care enough to write with any degree of factual accuracy.

 

[drewyallop]

Sorry Steve - first you talk about "additional topspin" which implies that some drives have topspin in the first place.

Then you post something like "Assume you have a zero degree loft driver with a bulge and roll to impart gear effect." Sorry again, bulge and roll don't impart gear effect.

You're either way out of your depth on this - or you don't care enough to write with any degree of factual accuracy.

I believe you are right birly. Bulge and role reduce gear effect (see ASII).

 

[magicmarker]

Also steve you can look at a birds eye view of your driver and use your imagination.

 

[SteveT]

Where did you come up with the term "topsin torque"? Those pictures are symbolic, but the language used in those pictures is misleading. Not sure how there is pre-final spin and final spin on the ball at impact. At some point spin might become irreducibly complex. The reduction of spin might be due to something other than "topspin" being asserted on the ball to counter the backspin.

"topspin torque" = gears do torque...!!!

How are the pictures misleading? If you're not sure about how final spin occurs you should ask Tuxen because he has to deal with it. As for ball spin causes being indeterminate, you could be right but then you should tell us why rather than floating unfounded speculation. Try again.

Sorry Steve - first you talk about "additional topspin" which implies that some drives have topspin in the first place.

Then you post something like "Assume you have a zero degree loft driver with a bulge and roll to impart gear effect." Sorry again, bulge and roll don't impart gear effect.

You're either way out of your depth on this - or you don't care enough to write with any degree of factual accuracy.

No, I don't imply that there is topspin in the first place ...only you mistakenly do.

As for bulge and roll, I misspoke myself and should have typed "impede" .. not "impart". Thanks for the correction.

Where am I 'factually incorrect' in what I have posted... and your unsubtantiated accusations are not valid judgments. Try again.

I believe you are right birly. Bulge and role reduce gear effect (see ASII).

Correct, and I have corrected my post by changing "impart" to "impede". I misspoke myself. No harm to my messages in any case.


Carry on ....

 

[SteveT]

Also steve you can look at a birds eye view of your driver and use your imagination.

I think I have just disposed of "3 birds" with one stone ....

 

[cwdlaw223]

"topspin torque" = gears do torque...!!!

How are the pictures misleading? If you're not sure about how final spin occurs you should ask Tuxen because he has to deal with it. As for ball spin causes being indeterminate, you could be right but then you should tell us why rather than floating unfounded speculation. Try again.




No, I don't imply that there is topspin in the first place ...only you mistakenly do.

As for bulge and roll, I misspoke myself and should have typed "impede" .. not "impart". Thanks for the correction.

Where am I 'factually incorrect' in what I have posted... and your unsubtantiated accusations are not valid judgments. Try again.




Correct, and I have corrected my post by changing "impart" to "impede". I misspoke myself. No harm to my messages in any case.


Carry on ....

So you obtained your idea of torque topspin from Tuxen? You never gave me a source for your position and now you claim Tuxen.

I agree you don't imply topspin, you actually state topspin. If there is no topspin why would you want to use that word and create confusion? I don't believe you misspoke. The pictures you put up show imparted, not impeded, concepts. Are you really Teeace??? He does that stuff once he gets caught.

 

[SteveT]

So you obtained your idea of torque topspin from Tuxen? You never gave me a source for your position and now you claim Tuxen.

I agree you don't imply topspin, you actually state topspin. If there is no topspin why would you want to use that word and create confusion?

No... I just suggested Tuxen as somebody you might want to believe.

I see a topspin effect in vertical gear effect for impact above the club CofG and high in the face. Perhaps the confusion is caused by your inability to understand how forces and torques can resolve themselves into a final spin and final axis tilt. Without knowledge on how force vectors and torques are resolved, you will never understand the science of spin or for that matter path.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Or, you are using terms that have no correlation to your position and you're the only one who believes in a topspin theory that's now evolving into forces and torques where I've always known had to played a role. If someone can verify your pre final spin theory post a link. I never said sidespin or topspin, you did. Tuxen doesn't speak of sidespin, you do. Your use of incorrect and/or imprecise terms imply a lack of knowledge of the subject matter. Give us a link to someone that thinks and talks like you about impact and vertical gear effect. I have yet to read anything by Tuxen that is even close to your pre final spin theory.

 

[SteveT]

cdwlaw... you are reducing yourself to nitpicking and improvising nonsense in your desperate and futile attempt to discredit me. Enjoy yourself and the approval of like minds...

 

[cwdlaw223]

Give me evidence! If there's good evidence I'll believe. Nobody talks like you do about impact and gear effect.
Complaining about wordslike topspin and side spin isn't nitpicking. Those words are the problem.

 

[SteveT]

Look at the pictures ... showing sidespin gear effect and topspin/underspin gear effect .... as the club torques the ball on off-center impact.

If you have difficulty with that, I can't help you. If you want to debunk my statements, please do more than just attempting to cast doubt and nitpick endlessly. It makes you look bad.

 

[cwdlaw223]

That's it???? You need to present more than a picture. How about an article where someone other than yourself references topspin and sidespin and pre final sidespin. I could easily put up pre D plane pictures for ballflight as evidence the D plane is wrong. Give us something.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I am pretty sure I wouldn't call vertical gear effect top spin....

 

[Frans@France]

I know there is only one "resultant" spin to the ball

mhhh...you're sure?... or did you mean to write "one resultant spin to the ball that has a significant influence to the ball flight" ?

 

[SteveT]

I am pretty sure I wouldn't call vertical gear effect top spin....

How about "overspin effect"?

mhhh...you're sure?... or did you mean to write "one resultant spin to the ball that has a significant influence to the ball flight" ?

Okay... but the vertical gear effect torque on the ball during impact counters the back spin.

The picture says: Top of the face (impact) = Less back spin ........ and it shows a gear torque on the ball.

Face bulge and roll will reduce the effect of gear effect, but it's still there, only modified.

 

[SteveT]

Hope this helps.... from Tutelman:

By the same token, a miss above or below the CG will produce topspin or backspin. (Well, it probably won't produce enough topspin to overpower the backspin that's there due to the loft of the clubhead. So, strictly speaking, it is reducing backspin, not producing topspin.) This is called vertical gear effect, because the spin is in a vertical plane.

Link: All about Gear Effect - 1


I never said that actual topspin happens in ball flight; only that there is a topspin torque effect applied to the ball at impact that reduces the back spin.... as does Tutelman.

Q.E.D.