Early set vs late set

[huestisc]

The thread on Lagging Clubhead Takeaway got me expermenting at the range with Float Loading, with mixed results. Occasional strong shots mixed with a lot of crap and the odd hosel rocket here and there. I had more success with the driver and had lots of problems with the wedge, including lots of fat shots.

I generally fight a hook (sometimes a nasty pull-hook), and recently have been working on Brian's Never Hook Again pattern. My results have been pretty good, and I would give myself an A- for accuracy but a C for distance using that pattern. Hence the search for more distance. I went back and watched "Flipper" again and honed in on the float-loading aspects, hoping to find a way to get some more sizzle in the "Never Hook Again".

I don't want to judge my efforts at Float Loading or Snap Loading or Late Set based on one range session, so what I want to know is this: What are the advantages and disadvantages of Early-set vs Late-set patterns? In what cases does one suit a particular golfer? Is early-set generally easier to learn and master? Is late-set generally more powerful (in the right hands)?

I watched a lot of the Ladies' British Open this weekend on TV, and you see a lot more early set in the ladies than in the men (and you see a lot more really bad swings as well). Winner Sherri Steinhauer is a case in point, and of course Susan Pettersen is the early-set poster child. Why is this more prevalent with the ladies? Does snap loading and float loading require more strength or more talent? Does this have implications for the average male player?

 

[Erik_K]

The thread on Lagging Clubhead Takeaway got me expermenting at the range with Float Loading, with mixed results. Occasional strong shots mixed with a lot of crap and the odd hosel rocket here and there. I had more success with the driver and had lots of problems with the wedge, including lots of fat shots.

I generally fight a hook (sometimes a nasty pull-hook), and recently have been working on Brian's Never Hook Again pattern. My results have been pretty good, and I would give myself an A- for accuracy but a C for distance using that pattern. Hence the search for more distance. I went back and watched "Flipper" again and honed in on the float-loading aspects, hoping to find a way to get some more sizzle in the "Never Hook Again".

I don't want to judge my efforts at Float Loading or Snap Loading or Late Set based on one range session, so I what I want to know is this: What are the advantages and disadvantages of Early-set vs Late-set patterns? In what cases does one suit a particular golfer? Is early-set generally easier to learn and master? Is late-set generally more powerful (in the right hands)?

I watched a lot of the Ladies' British Open this weekend on TV, and you see a lot more early set in the ladies than in the men (and you see a lot more really bad swings as well). Winner Sherri Steinhauer is a case in point, and of course Susan Pettersen is the early-set poster child. Why is this more prevalent with the ladies? Does snap loading and float loading require more strength or more talent? Does this have implications for the average male player?

Did you watch the Buick tourney the other day-namely Lucas Glover's swing?

Boy, I love his 'quiet' hands. He didn't have a dramatic lagging takeaway but (IMO) he float loaded and that helps with really lag the clubhead on the way down.

I don't think snap loading requires more strength. Look at Sergio. He probably couldn't bench 50 lbs, and no one in the history of the sport has that much snap.

Brian once remarked that it's easier to move into position instead of trying to hold and maintain a position. I am beginning to think that is why I have such an ugly sweep release. I think I am going to experiment more with float loading as I think that helps develop and promote more snap.

 

[dodger]

Sam Snead said that the early set caused him to hook something fierce or words to that effect. If I concentrate on keeping the club outside the hands on the takeaway, lag increases. I am 5'8" and of average strength. Float load is a better technique for those of small stature IMO. Watch Sluman, great swing plane and float load takeaway. The shank you are experiencing is an issue, watch Brians video on the shank, this should help as it helped me quite a bit. Also, I think float loading does not work as well with wedge play, that is my experience.

 

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

A few thoughts

Huestic,

Here a few thoughts on the late set/early set theme.

If you look at the swings of the professionals they vary a little as to when they set the club but by the time they reach the top of their backswings virutally of them they have all reached at least 90º between the left arm and the clubshaft. As a general rule it seems that the longer the club the later it is set. I don't know if you have a copy of Hogan's Power Golf but if you look at the photos of the iron swings and the woods there is a clear difference in the position of the clubshaft when the left arm is parallel to the ground in the backswing. It seems that some players prefer a faster set, a more rapid cock of the left wrist and bend of the right elbow, kind of getting the work done faster and being able to focus on the turn and others wait a little longer to complete the set, Nicklaus and Norman for example.

I think the principal motives for advocating an early set are for reasons of balance and timing. As Brian mentioned in his lastest video "rhythm is all about hingeing" A faster set has a better chance of maintaining a synchronised rate of rotation. The clubhead obviously has to move a lot faster than the body and by setting the wrists early it helps to keep the arm swing in sync with the body turn. I know from attending a Leadbetter training day last year that they, at least, like to see the clubshaft parallel to the ground when the hands are just outside the right thigh and when the left arm is parallel to the ground the clubshaft at 90º. These are model "positions" and most pro swings vary a little from this. Sergio Gracía was working on setting earlier because his body tended to outrace his hands in the downswing. The body has a limit to its amount of wait time.

Another advantage for an early set as I see it is, and here comes the point about the women doing it more, is a question of weight and balance. Virtually all of the weight of the club is in the head, a late set requires the golfer to bear more weight for longer and that puts a strain on the wrists, forearms and shoulders for women generally it is therefore important for the club to be set early as the club weighs less and the tendency to be pulled out of the posture to the right and over turn is decreased.

Mac O'Grady prefers an early set and maybe one of the reasons for his low hands set-up, which to an extent pre-cocks the left wrist which along with a rapidly bending right elbow promote an earlier rather than a later set.

In conclusion, within limits it seems there is some margin for the setting of the wrists. The key more importantly is, once set, keeping or increasing it on the downswing!

Hope this helps.

 

[huestisc]

To dream the impossible dream?

Thanks for the replies...Brian's latest video also covered a lot of this ground on this topic regarding backswing choices and various ways to get the club to the top.

Dodger, I did see Brian's video on the shanks, and it's the best explanation I have ever seen. I think my shanks were the result of a couple things. One, by working on a new move, float loading, I could only have so many thoughts in my head at once, and keeping the clubface looking at the ball at times fell by the wayside. Also, my backswing was "up the wall", but in the transition, I think the club was dropping inside and underplane, getting pp3 underneath the sweetspot. From here it was tough NOT to swing the hosel into the ball. I had more success with a FEELING of keeping the clubface looking at the ball throughout the whole backswing and downswing, even though at some point I know it had to be turning to the plane and back again.

Erik, I have not seen Lucas Glover's swing. I live in Europe, so I don't get to see too many tour tournaments. Like everyone, I am looking for more power and distance, more sizzle, more snap, which is why I am fooling around with snap loading, float loading, etc. I am a touch smaller than Sergio, but obviously guys like him and Chucky Howell make me realize that even us little guys CAN pop it out there, but it requires LOTS of accumulator lag, delayed release, etc. I am trying to figure out if this is a viable pattern for me, or something that is beyond my grasp. If memory serves, you are quite a bit bigger and stronger than me, so I don't know if the same thing will "fit" us both or not.

Hogan1953, thanks for your response, definitely some good information there and some common sense. To me there are two separate issues I am trying to figure out...first, how do you figure out what type of loading location is best for you? Trial and error and hitting thousands of balls can help in this respect, but unfortunately I lack the time to do that, so I am trying to get a handle on the pros and cons of various techniques to try to find a "shortcut" to establishing a pattern that is best for me.

Secondly, I am looking for the best ways to learn float loading. To me, the issue of setting the flying wedges (establishing flat left wrist/bent right wrist) and loading the number 2 accumalator (cocking the wrists) are related but obviously not the same. In a given swing, I can't think of both...it's hard enough to think about just one! But for instance if I concentrate on a lagging clubhead takeaway/late set of the flying wedges, does accum 2 lag necessarily follow? If I think only about accum 2 lag, I don't know if my hands are sufficiently educated not to be cocking my right wrist as well, having a bent left wrist/open clubface/laggin hosel combo leading to the dreaded shank.

Anyway, I don't think there is necessarily a neat and tidy answer to either of my questions, but I appreciate all the responses, which are helping me get a better handle on the topic.

 

[mrodock]

I don't think snap loading requires more strength. Look at Sergio. He probably couldn't bench 50 lbs, and no one in the history of the sport has that much snap.

I'd put my over/under at 250.

 

[huestisc]

I'll take the over on 50, but the under on 250....but I think the answer is a lot closer to 250...I think Sergio is a bit more solid than Erik gives him credit for

 

[Erik_K]

Thanks for the replies...Brian's latest video also covered a lot of this ground on this topic regarding backswing choices and various ways to get the club to the top.

Dodger, I did see Brian's video on the shanks, and it's the best explanation I have ever seen. I think my shanks were the result of a couple things. One, by working on a new move, float loading, I could only have so many thoughts in my head at once, and keeping the clubface looking at the ball at times fell by the wayside. Also, my backswing was "up the wall", but in the transition, I think the club was dropping inside and underplane, getting pp3 underneath the sweetspot. From here it was tough NOT to swing the hosel into the ball. I had more success with a FEELING of keeping the clubface looking at the ball throughout the whole backswing and downswing, even though at some point I know it had to be turning to the plane and back again.

Erik, I have not seen Lucas Glover's swing. I live in Europe, so I don't get to see too many tour tournaments. Like everyone, I am looking for more power and distance, more sizzle, more snap, which is why I am fooling around with snap loading, float loading, etc. I am a touch smaller than Sergio, but obviously guys like him and Chucky Howell make me realize that even us little guys CAN pop it out there, but it requires LOTS of accumulator lag, delayed release, etc. I am trying to figure out if this is a viable pattern for me, or something that is beyond my grasp. If memory serves, you are quite a bit bigger and stronger than me, so I don't know if the same thing will "fit" us both or not.

Hogan1953, thanks for your response, definitely some good information there and some common sense. To me there are two separate issues I am trying to figure out...first, how do you figure out what type of loading location is best for you? Trial and error and hitting thousands of balls can help in this respect, but unfortunately I lack the time to do that, so I am trying to get a handle on the pros and cons of various techniques to try to find a "shortcut" to establishing a pattern that is best for me.

Secondly, I am looking for the best ways to learn float loading. To me, the issue of setting the flying wedges (establishing flat left wrist/bent right wrist) and loading the number 2 accumalator (cocking the wrists) are related but obviously not the same. In a given swing, I can't think of both...it's hard enough to think about just one! But for instance if I concentrate on a lagging clubhead takeaway/late set of the flying wedges, does accum 2 lag necessarily follow? If I think only about accum 2 lag, I don't know if my hands are sufficiently educated not to be cocking my right wrist as well, having a bent left wrist/open clubface/laggin hosel combo leading to the dreaded shank.

Anyway, I don't think there is necessarily a neat and tidy answer to either of my questions, but I appreciate all the responses, which are helping me get a better handle on the topic.

You're big Al's son, right? I met your dad at the Orlando school, and you are smaller than Sergio?

I believe than anyone can lag the clubhead, but it is a trained motion-not something that is natural and intuitive for most. Most people have a sweep release, or even some leakages (aka throwaway). IMO, you don't need to be super strong, but being in good shape is certainly a plus.

 

[huestisc]

Big Al's son

Yes Erik, I am Big Al's little son. Oddly enough I am about the size of Corey Pavin, while my brother is 6' 2", 220....go figure. Anyway, I remember my Mom and Dad mentioning you from the Orlando school...they seemed to have liked you a lot.

So anyway, given my small stature, I clearly need to generate a lot of lag and have a very efficient motion if I am going to be able to hit the ball far, so the search continues.

 

[Erik_K]

Yes Erik, I am Big Al's little son. Oddly enough I am about the size of Corey Pavin, while my brother is 6' 2", 220....go figure. Anyway, I remember my Mom and Dad mentioning you from the Orlando school...they seemed to have liked you a lot.

So anyway, given my small stature, I clearly need to generate a lot of lag and have a very efficient motion if I am going to be able to hit the ball far, so the search continues.

I also met your mom, too. After the instruction we sat down at the club house and talked for a while. I think they said you are in Spain.

Like you, I am also in the quest to develop more snap. It's attainable, but it takes a fair amount of effort.

I was on the phone with Brian the other night and he said, at one point, he had a HUGE sweep release as did Mike Finney. Brian and Mike aren't the biggest and strongest guys around, but man, they sure can wallop the ball.

 

[tourdeep]

I believe than anyone can lag the clubhead, but it is a trained motion-not something that is natural and intuitive for most. Most people have a sweep release, or even some leakages (aka throwaway). IMO, you don't need to be super strong, but being in good shape is certainly a plus.

I fully agree, this is a disruptive motion until it becomes natural. As far as the shanks are concerned, my experience is one needs to have a few to more than several of those dreaded hits to know you're on the right path (by knowing it's wrong) to understand what causes it. My shanks occur when I consciously try to hold off the release. Practicing it, accepting the fact that a shank will occur has helped my quest. It is very frustrating and embarrassing when I think delay while playing and el shanko occurs. If one has pride, money, tournment, on the line, I highly suggest to not even think of any portion of the mechanics and allow whatever is ingrained in the noggin to happen naturally. When I concern myself with my routine, better things tend to happen. I just hope with time and a few to tens of thousands of swings later, this delayed release will be natural.


Might I recommend a couple of drills for those that want the snap release.

Brian's fiddle drill is great.

And the readings of Tom Bertholy (deceased). Essentially, the approach takes Hogan, Snead, and Nelson's attributes and rolling it into one. It breaks down the delayed release with kinesthetic applications. Fundamentally, IMO, a lot of similarities between Stallion and Bertholy. And many of his peers hold (held) Tom in high regard...

 

[The Return of NAT]

Yes Erik, I am Big Al's little son. Oddly enough I am about the size of Corey Pavin, while my brother is 6' 2", 220....go figure. Anyway, I remember my Mom and Dad mentioning you from the Orlando school...they seemed to have liked you a lot.

So anyway, given my small stature, I clearly need to generate a lot of lag and have a very efficient motion if I am going to be able to hit the ball far, so the search continues.

Met both mom and dad during a recent lesson....great folk...you're lucky to have them as parents....thanks ....BTW...Dad learned the release motions......to go with his great move...

 

[blehnhard]

I believe that was Paul Bertholy

Bruce

 

[c21heel]

Where is the shank video? I can't seem to find it.

 

[David Alford]

I don't think snap loading requires more strength. Look at Sergio. He probably couldn't bench 50 lbs, and no one in the history of the sport has that much snap.

Well, if you look at either of my two swing clips (early set and Hogan model) I posted a few months ago, the amount of "snap" loading is the same as Sergio's. You can also see the consequence of this angle later in the downswing in the signature link below my posts (until I remove this low quality pic at some point).

Specifically (in the video clips), note the clubshaft is almost touching the top of my right shoulder in the early stage of the downswing. If you're not used to it, you can literally sprain your left wrist with these angles. :-(

Anyway, a lot of people could do this if they knew how. I reject the theory that I or Sergio or Hogan are uniquely talented or have uniquely flexible wrists.

Matter of fact, lots of folks can do it and will be doing it once they learn how.
I've said it before, but I'll repeat it again...technique goes a long way.

 

[bantamben2]

hey dave to you have a link to these videos of your swing.
also mac has a technique to get the right amount of lag every time. Just ask david orr notice how he has just enough lag at the start of his downswing. This method can be taught to anyone in one lesson

 

[huestisc]

I was on the phone with Brian the other night and he said, at one point, he had a HUGE sweep release as did Mike Finney. Brian and Mike aren't the biggest and strongest guys around, but man, they sure can wallop the ball.

Thanks for the inspiration, Erik...I know it won't happen overnight, but with hard work and good information, it's possible to get to the destination.

I also like David Alford's attitude that a great swing can be learned by ANYONE if they have the proper information...I just wish he would reveal more of his SECRETS!!!

 

[huestisc]

Met both mom and dad during a recent lesson....great folk...you're lucky to have them as parents....thanks ....BTW...Dad learned the release motions......to go with his great move...

Hi NAT, it is an honor and a pleasure to have you aboard this thread. I agree wholeheartedly about being lucky to have the parents I do. Dad really enjoyed the time he spent with you. Now we just need to get his cousin over in Chapel Hill to come see you...I hope to be lucky enough to make the journey to Keith Hills myself if I am ever in the area.

I know you work with many good players of all shapes, sizes and swing patterns. Can you provide any insight to my question as to what factors make early set vs late set more beneficial to different golfers?

Is it fair to say that early-set makes it easier to achieve proper alignments (geometry) and late-set makes allows for superior physics...but makes it tougher (requires more talent??) to get the geometry precise? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Mac has a technique to get the right amount of lag every time. Just ask david orr notice how he has just enough lag at the start of his downswing. This method can be taught to anyone in one lesson.

Also, Bantemben seems to think you have a SECRET of Mac's for getting the "right" amount of lag....care to reveal any useful nuggets?

 

[shootin4par]

Anyway, a lot of people could do this if they knew how. I reject the theory that I or Sergio or Hogan are uniquely talented or have uniquely flexible wrists.

Matter of fact, lots of folks can do it and will be doing it once they learn how.
I've said it before, but I'll repeat it again...technique goes a long way.

in order for the folks to learn how to do it, wouldnt hogans half swing drill teach them, No arms invloved while keeping the elbows close and just turning the body?

 

[Erik_K]

Well, if you look at either of my two swing clips (early set and Hogan model) I posted a few months ago, the amount of "snap" loading is the same as Sergio's. You can also see the consequence of this angle later in the downswing in the signature link below my posts (until I remove this low quality pic at some point).

Specifically (in the video clips), note the clubshaft is almost touching the top of my right shoulder in the early stage of the downswing. If you're not used to it, you can literally sprain your left wrist with these angles. :-(

Anyway, a lot of people could do this if they knew how. I reject the theory that I or Sergio or Hogan are uniquely talented or have uniquely flexible wrists.

Matter of fact, lots of folks can do it and will be doing it once they learn how.
I've said it before, but I'll repeat it again...technique goes a long way.

I stand corrected, David. I did view the videos you posted and if you recall, I said the swing looked great. You certainly have as much trigger delay as Sergio.