Els vs.Weir(Brian) Stacked Up?
- Thread starter Redgoat
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Redgoat
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Hue,
When the head stays "behind" the ball more than it was at set-up(allowing some play) and the left knee buckles because the left hip is too far outside the foot, that is too much tilt.
The right shoulder can be on plane and the tilt appropriate when the left hip opens and doesn't bump so far. This encourages the shoulders to be slightly open at impact, where they should be. The right shoulder doesn't hang behind the right foot in an attempt to stay square too long, but moves past the foot and closer to the ball.
Redgoat
When the head stays "behind" the ball more than it was at set-up(allowing some play) and the left knee buckles because the left hip is too far outside the foot, that is too much tilt.
The right shoulder can be on plane and the tilt appropriate when the left hip opens and doesn't bump so far. This encourages the shoulders to be slightly open at impact, where they should be. The right shoulder doesn't hang behind the right foot in an attempt to stay square too long, but moves past the foot and closer to the ball.
Redgoat
first off saying that Els's swing is silly is retarted. Brian's honeymoon is over and just wants a reaction. I want Els's silly swing and saying you would "fix" him won't pull in many tour guys for help, BM.
Maybe a missed this point in another reply but... as long as the impact tilt is down and through the ball, no problem, but I think most hackers will see a falling back of the upper body to achieve this position. Could be dangerous.
Maybe a missed this point in another reply but... as long as the impact tilt is down and through the ball, no problem, but I think most hackers will see a falling back of the upper body to achieve this position. Could be dangerous.
Thanks Redgoat for the rest of the Jesper pic. I had seen a photo where he really held his right wrist bend for a long time, with quite a bit of axis tilt.
Does anyone agree that a ball positioned too far back with a great player would cause them to have too much axis tilt in an effort to move low point back to the ball position?
I agree with Redgoat on the axis tilt not having to be excessive, just enough to keep the right shoulder on plane.
Todd
Does anyone agree that a ball positioned too far back with a great player would cause them to have too much axis tilt in an effort to move low point back to the ball position?
I agree with Redgoat on the axis tilt not having to be excessive, just enough to keep the right shoulder on plane.
Todd
Here's my take on spine tilt.
I do think that a good swing needs SOME spine tilt. This can be established at address by good posture. It helps in bringing the clubhead from the inside and keeping the right side down. Many amateurs, especially high handicappers do not have enough tilt.
However, I think you CAN have TOO MUCH tilt. Redgoat has talked about it here. Here are some disadvantages that I see with excessive tilt:
a) bad for the back
b) clubhead coming too much from inside with the bottom of the arc tending to fall behind the ball.
c) clubface coming in more open.
I will talk about these in a minute, but let's first compare the pics of Weir and Els that Redgoat put up. I've added some lines. For some reason the image got a bit distorted, but it is still useful in illustrating my points.
http://www.megspace.com/sports/jono007/weirvsels.html
The blue circle represents the head of the right humerus (i.e. right shoulder). The blue line is the distance between the right shoulder and the base of the neck (i.e. right shoulder lever). Likewise, the red circle represents the left shoulder and the red line represents the left shoulder lever.
The yellow circle is supposed to represent the pelvic brim ... you can think of it as the belt around the player's waist. The reason that I put this in is to get a more accurate idea of the player's spine angle. Many people draw a line from the base of the neck down to the belt buckle to represent the spine angle. This is not accurate (especially if the player has a large belly). The spine is at the BACK of the torso. It runs from the base of the neck down to the tail bone. That is why I like to look at the spine tilt angle from the behind view (ie. standing behind the player). It is easier to estimate the position of the tail bone.
The green line represents the spine tilt angle. This is a crude estimate.
You can clearly see that Weir's tilt angle is greater than Els'. However, if you compare the shoulder levers (red and blue lines), you can see that Els gets his right shoulder down just as well as Weir. This is because the shoulders can have some independent movement relative to the torso. The human torso is not a rigid cylinder. You can move the shoulders up or down by shrugging them without moving the torso.
Try this. Stand in front of a mirror with your hands by your sides. Left hand on the left thigh, right hand on the right thigh. Keep the spine upright. Now, WITHOUT tilting the spine, slide the left hand UP the left thigh, and slide the right hand DOWN the right thigh, by SHRUGGING the shoulders. Shrug the left shoulder UP and shrug (or deshrug, if you like) the right shoulder DOWN. Notice how much you can get the right shoulder down without having to tilt your spine to the right.
In a good swing, I believe that the right shoulder moves down because of: a) the spine tilt to the right AND b) deshrugging move of the right shoulder lever. Trying to achieve low right shoulder just by spine tilt alone, IMO, will cause too much spine tilt. Not only will this be bad for the back (increased torque and pressure on the spine), but you upset body's equilibrium and balance. As mentioned before, the clubhead will tend to come into the ball too much from the inside and the clubface will tend to come in too much open. Both require compensations from the hands and arms.
Re: open clubface with excessive spine tilt
Try this. Stand in front of a mirror whilst gripping a club. Stand upright and hold the club out in front of you at waist height (clubhead way off the ground at waist height). The leading edge of the clubface should be vertical (ie. 12 o'clock), with the club face square to the target. Now, TILT your spine to the right. More and more. See what happens to the clubface. The leading edge starts to tilt to the right along with the spine, and the clubface becomes OPEN. After you have introduced what you feel to be a lot of spine tilt (say 30 to 40 degrees), now LEAN over towards the ball to place the clubhead on the ground. Can you see how open the clubface is? As you introduce more and more spine tilt into the swing, you have to compensate more with the hands and arms to square the clubface. This will introduce inconsistencies.
Jono.
I do think that a good swing needs SOME spine tilt. This can be established at address by good posture. It helps in bringing the clubhead from the inside and keeping the right side down. Many amateurs, especially high handicappers do not have enough tilt.
However, I think you CAN have TOO MUCH tilt. Redgoat has talked about it here. Here are some disadvantages that I see with excessive tilt:
a) bad for the back
b) clubhead coming too much from inside with the bottom of the arc tending to fall behind the ball.
c) clubface coming in more open.
I will talk about these in a minute, but let's first compare the pics of Weir and Els that Redgoat put up. I've added some lines. For some reason the image got a bit distorted, but it is still useful in illustrating my points.
http://www.megspace.com/sports/jono007/weirvsels.html
The blue circle represents the head of the right humerus (i.e. right shoulder). The blue line is the distance between the right shoulder and the base of the neck (i.e. right shoulder lever). Likewise, the red circle represents the left shoulder and the red line represents the left shoulder lever.
The yellow circle is supposed to represent the pelvic brim ... you can think of it as the belt around the player's waist. The reason that I put this in is to get a more accurate idea of the player's spine angle. Many people draw a line from the base of the neck down to the belt buckle to represent the spine angle. This is not accurate (especially if the player has a large belly). The spine is at the BACK of the torso. It runs from the base of the neck down to the tail bone. That is why I like to look at the spine tilt angle from the behind view (ie. standing behind the player). It is easier to estimate the position of the tail bone.
The green line represents the spine tilt angle. This is a crude estimate.
You can clearly see that Weir's tilt angle is greater than Els'. However, if you compare the shoulder levers (red and blue lines), you can see that Els gets his right shoulder down just as well as Weir. This is because the shoulders can have some independent movement relative to the torso. The human torso is not a rigid cylinder. You can move the shoulders up or down by shrugging them without moving the torso.
Try this. Stand in front of a mirror with your hands by your sides. Left hand on the left thigh, right hand on the right thigh. Keep the spine upright. Now, WITHOUT tilting the spine, slide the left hand UP the left thigh, and slide the right hand DOWN the right thigh, by SHRUGGING the shoulders. Shrug the left shoulder UP and shrug (or deshrug, if you like) the right shoulder DOWN. Notice how much you can get the right shoulder down without having to tilt your spine to the right.
In a good swing, I believe that the right shoulder moves down because of: a) the spine tilt to the right AND b) deshrugging move of the right shoulder lever. Trying to achieve low right shoulder just by spine tilt alone, IMO, will cause too much spine tilt. Not only will this be bad for the back (increased torque and pressure on the spine), but you upset body's equilibrium and balance. As mentioned before, the clubhead will tend to come into the ball too much from the inside and the clubface will tend to come in too much open. Both require compensations from the hands and arms.
Re: open clubface with excessive spine tilt
Try this. Stand in front of a mirror whilst gripping a club. Stand upright and hold the club out in front of you at waist height (clubhead way off the ground at waist height). The leading edge of the clubface should be vertical (ie. 12 o'clock), with the club face square to the target. Now, TILT your spine to the right. More and more. See what happens to the clubface. The leading edge starts to tilt to the right along with the spine, and the clubface becomes OPEN. After you have introduced what you feel to be a lot of spine tilt (say 30 to 40 degrees), now LEAN over towards the ball to place the clubhead on the ground. Can you see how open the clubface is? As you introduce more and more spine tilt into the swing, you have to compensate more with the hands and arms to square the clubface. This will introduce inconsistencies.
Jono.
Brian: Do you agree with Redgoat on this one? Here is the link
Brian etal.,
What do you think of this pic.
http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=2e0b6433-2746-2bdc-1a91-68507beb7454&size=
This is a good thread.
I hope that I am not off topic with this post.
The oddity for me with the provided photos is that I have no way to know if either Els or Wier accomplished the result that they were intending to achieve. The unknowns can become a problem.
Since I look to Homer for most of my needs, LOL!, this is my view. One must have a very positive axis tilt/hip slide. How much? I think Brian eluded to the hands as being the educators. (my paraphrase).
If one does not accomplish this, and though there are other issues, one would experience; excessive head movement, but more importantly a trail hip and trail elbow collision. To compensate one would have to go out and around to clear the trail hip. I think all of us can imagine what the result of that would be.
This thread could also be incorporated with the thread, "Flat or Rotated Shoulder Turn." Only way to get the right shoulder down on plane is to tilt the axis. It is quite easy for all golfers to test this, even without a club. Make a pivot motion to the top and attempt to move the trail shoulder down on plane. Make a small movement. Stop and look at the hips.
It is also quite evident with what I believe ragman posted with the fresh lines. There be some tilt.
Sorry for the intrusion. I need to go hide under my rock now. Bye bye.
The oddity for me with the provided photos is that I have no way to know if either Els or Wier accomplished the result that they were intending to achieve. The unknowns can become a problem.
Since I look to Homer for most of my needs, LOL!, this is my view. One must have a very positive axis tilt/hip slide. How much? I think Brian eluded to the hands as being the educators. (my paraphrase).
If one does not accomplish this, and though there are other issues, one would experience; excessive head movement, but more importantly a trail hip and trail elbow collision. To compensate one would have to go out and around to clear the trail hip. I think all of us can imagine what the result of that would be. This thread could also be incorporated with the thread, "Flat or Rotated Shoulder Turn." Only way to get the right shoulder down on plane is to tilt the axis. It is quite easy for all golfers to test this, even without a club. Make a pivot motion to the top and attempt to move the trail shoulder down on plane. Make a small movement. Stop and look at the hips.
It is also quite evident with what I believe ragman posted with the fresh lines. There be some tilt.
Sorry for the intrusion. I need to go hide under my rock now. Bye bye.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
dude...we like you...come out from under that rock
Redgoat
New
Jono,
Nice post. I agree about the dangers to the back imposed by excessive spine tilt as I lived them personally.
Shin-Sha,
You could basically say that anything in the swing can be overdone. To me, this includes lag and tilt. I must agree with you about the Bertholy drill as well. Your comments relating to Weir were quite interesting but unfortuneately, I don't know how similar or different this is to his normal. However, I can tell you those pictures were taken within the last month.
Redgoat
Nice post. I agree about the dangers to the back imposed by excessive spine tilt as I lived them personally.
Shin-Sha,
You could basically say that anything in the swing can be overdone. To me, this includes lag and tilt. I must agree with you about the Bertholy drill as well. Your comments relating to Weir were quite interesting but unfortuneately, I don't know how similar or different this is to his normal. However, I can tell you those pictures were taken within the last month.
Redgoat
Brady,
Respect and agree with much of what you say, but in many cases I wonder if those who work with very good players miss their audience on this medium. I doubt if there is a weekend warrior viewing this forum who has to backup about a foot due to having so much lag and has to constantly be reminded to keep ball position forward, like a Clampett.
Same could be said for tilt. An example of this are the golfers, instructors included, who have miss read Hogan for years. They gravitate to the hips but fail to read or comprehend the paragraph that follows. I use this as an example, though there are so many other tidbits in Hogan's book that gets totally lost or even misread. Sorry, got off topic.
So, can a golfer play without lag? Tilt? Yes. But they will pay a price and they will most definitely need to make compensations and anytime you make compensations the price paid will be distance and consistency. Can a golfer have to much lag? No. Tilt? Yes, but.......
I guess what I am trying to say is that Clampett or Hogan are not here. Most who are here have very little of the 2 mentioned items and few know how to achieve or know the importance of acquiring and implementing into their total motion. Though I would say that due to threads and talk of this nature, most will definitely be enlighten.
Redgoat, it is great to see instructors of yours and Brian’s capabilities spending some of your valuable time on this type of medium. Both should be commended.
Thanks for the time and excuse the mini diatribe. LOL!
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Now you know why Elk loves Ben.
I will have more to say on this stuff in my tape...
I will have more to say on this stuff in my tape...
Redgoat
New
Dude,
Thank you for the kind words. I agree that not everyone will benefit from less tilt and less lag. However, you can't possibly write anything that will benefit everyone. It is my contention that some teach excessive tilt that is not beneficial and can be hazardous. I am not saying Brian is in that group, but was trying to point out an extreme that in my opinion, should be avoided.
With that said, each student has their own set of issues to deal with and should be coached on an individual basis. I am sure you would agree that two students can have the exact opposite problems and require the teacher to give what would seem to be contradictary advice. The challenge of helping players of all abilities is what keeps teaching from becoming stale and boring.
Redgoat
Thank you for the kind words. I agree that not everyone will benefit from less tilt and less lag. However, you can't possibly write anything that will benefit everyone. It is my contention that some teach excessive tilt that is not beneficial and can be hazardous. I am not saying Brian is in that group, but was trying to point out an extreme that in my opinion, should be avoided.
With that said, each student has their own set of issues to deal with and should be coached on an individual basis. I am sure you would agree that two students can have the exact opposite problems and require the teacher to give what would seem to be contradictary advice. The challenge of helping players of all abilities is what keeps teaching from becoming stale and boring.
Redgoat
Brian Manzella
Administrator
True Brady, BUT!....
EVERYONE should have some TILT.
EVERYONE should have some TILT.
I think that Redgoat IS saying that everyone should have some TILT. It's just that there's a point where it's too much, and it may be in the swing ideas that you teach.
As someone who's been golfing for 2 decades I play with less rather than more axis tilt, relative to what you talk about.
However, when I see little kids, and even young teens who have beautiful swings (and easily shoot in the 70s), I notice that they all have plenty of axis tilt on the downswing.
Me confused!!
As someone who's been golfing for 2 decades I play with less rather than more axis tilt, relative to what you talk about.
However, when I see little kids, and even young teens who have beautiful swings (and easily shoot in the 70s), I notice that they all have plenty of axis tilt on the downswing.
Me confused!!
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