Euro Tour

[Dariusz J.]

I didn't bring up Hogan either. Look Dariusz, I believe I am being very objective dschultz made very good points in his thread. I do not believe any tour player is a hack and I believe different course conditions has to account for some of the discrepancy in accuracy statistics.

I respect your point of view.

Well, if you were totally objective, you would not have tried to put into my mouth words that I never ever said.

I respect your and others point of view and I am perfectly aware that I am in the vast minority if not alone. But that does not mean I have no right to express my point of view. For DSchultz Bradley can be an example of perfect ballstriker, for me he or similar around-50%-or-less fairway hitters are hacks on a professional level.

Cheers

 

[mgranato]

D, have you ever played a modern day tournament setup with double row irrigation to support the ridiculous amounts of fertilizer put in the rough on said setup?

If you haven't, you don't know what you are talking about (respectfully). Nor are you giving the credit to the talent it takes to extract a ball from those lies and put it safely on 11 stimped greens. I've played that rough at Torrey Pines (as a current example), I'm also bigger, stronger, and swing it faster than BH... to say that "modern rough" is laughable is laughable.

I'll take old timey rough/irrigation over today's rough/irrigation any day.

 

[Dariusz J.]

D, have you ever played a modern day tournament setup with double row irrigation to support the ridiculous amounts of fertilizer put in the rough on said setup?

If you haven't, you don't know what you are talking about (respectfully). Nor are you giving the credit to the talent it takes to extract a ball from those lies and put it safely on 11 stimped greens. I've played that rough at Torrey Pines (as a current example), I'm also bigger, stronger, and swing it faster than BH... to say that "modern rough" is laughable is laughable.

I'll take old timey rough/irrigation over today's rough/irrigation any day.

...and the crusade begins. Do we change topics now for rough ? Good.

No, I never played modern day tournament setup with double row irrigation to support the ridiculous amounts of fertilizer put in the rough on said setup. But I play on my home course and also am strong and heavy enough to exert more force than some of these tour kids, I guess. Moreover, I can see on TV how they hit greens from +150 yards from the "heavy rough". I can assure you that from the rough I play (not mentioning the rough Hogan played) they would be happy to see the ball on the fairway with shortest possible trajectory.
Lastly, US Opens. I can see lots of screwed attempts to hit a longer clubs than wedge sometimes. From rough to rough 40 yards short. And it is enough to let it grow to this height and thickness. Imagine a really thick and high rough then when the US Open rough is a joke. And this is what I expect to be more than 15-20 yards away from fairways. No bad bounce would make the ball go there. Only bad shots. Incompetent pros must be punished - the problem is that media and people do not like to see incompetent pros - because they think they're Gods. They are NOT.

Cheers

 

[magicmarker]

It's all about the angles, you can get a better angle to some hole locations from the rough than you would have had from the fairway. These guys play the percentages more than the supposed 'fairway'. I'm confused as to why you are so against the current state of professional golf. Being able to recover from your mistakes or minimize the damage has always been a part of the game. Maybe I am crazy here but I just always thought that in a game where you count strokes until the ball is in the hole that it's probably a godd idea to be superb at putting the ball into the hole, aka getting down in one. Followed by how well you get up and down from where ever in two and so on and so forth. GIR's seem like a better measure of "hacking" than FIR. The easiest way to knock it close enough to make the putt is not always a shot from the fairway.

 

[Jared Willerson]

I thought you were bored....

Anyway, we have a differing opinion.

Here is a summary, some posters (I and others) have tried explaining that course conditions are TOUGHER than they used to be because of speed. Yes equipment, technology, and agronomy have changed. They have made courses faster. There is merit to the "distance from edge of fairway" stat. Today's pros play a different game and rough has little to do, IMO, with high/low scores and Hogan never won a FedEx cup

Dariusz claims that today's pros are not as skilled as those in the past.

I do agree with Dariusz about the R&A/USGA letting distance get away from them.

 

[Dariusz J.]

It's all about the angles, you can get a better angle to some hole locations from the rough than you would have had from the fairway.

So it means that the designer screwed his job and fairways are wrongly allocated. Hitting fairways should be a reward and there should be no better place.

I'm confused as to why you are so against the current state of professional golf.

Because it promotes ball whacking and not accuracy play. Because it takes away the art of hitting shots. Same as in tennis - true artists extincted and only whackers remained. And it would be enough to set the net 20 cm higher and people would see what is the essence of controlling shots.

GIR's seem like a better measure of "hacking" than FIR. The easiest way to knock it close enough to make the putt is not always a shot from the fairway.

Of course. But if more depends on FIR numbers, the number of GIR would depend on the number of FIR. Simple as that. The game of golf happens from tee to the 2nd shot as well. Today they could just start holes from 2nd shots and the results would be the same as if they start from the tee. Sad.

Cheers

 

[OLIVER1]

...and the crusade begins. Do we change topics now for rough ? Good.

Incompetent pros must be punished - the problem is that media and people do not like to see incompetent pros - because they think they're Gods. They are NOT.

Cheers

Dari,
Have you also thought about the fact that the media and people wanna see guys bear down on a driver, even if they hit it two planets over. Perhaps the cognoscenti like yourself and others are keen to see a more purist streak dominate, but for the guys who are not big-time into golf (the guys who make up the viewing figures, and make it worthwhile for TV stations to cover golf, and for money to be pumped into the sport and to grow the game, and to sell equipment AND to make golf fora worthwhile) they want some excitement, some big drives, some insane recovery shots, etc. If they want what your proposing, they can call up chess on youtube
Moreover, Dariusz, remember that Tour pros in this era are much fitter and stronger than their one and two generation-removed predecessors.
Finally, I'm sure Ben Hogan was a breathtaking player, but from all I've heard about him, he was a mean, miserable individual, and that gives him the thumbs down in my book. Humanity before golf.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Dari,
Have you also thought about the fact that the media and people wanna see guys bear down on a driver, even if they hit it two planets over. Perhaps the cognoscenti like yourself and others are keen to see a more purist streak dominate, but for the guys who are not big-time into golf (the guys who make up the viewing figures, and make it worthwhile for TV stations to cover golf, and for money to be pumped into the sport and to grow the game, and to sell equipment AND to make golf fora worthwhile) they want some excitement, some big drives, some insane recovery shots, etc. If they want what your proposing, they can call up chess on youtube.

Yes, I know that. Media and money can spoil a lot of worthy things. And chess is a wonderful sport with a lot of excitement moments, believe me.

Moreover, Dariusz, remember that Tour pros in this era are much fitter and stronger than their one and two generation-removed predecessors.

It is quite normal. That's why I brought the tennis example. The height of the net should be proportional to the average height of a contemporary tennis player and modified every ten years or so. Light athletic organization solved it very easy - when people started to throw javelin too far, they made javelins heavier -- not rebuilt stadions. Golf is being governed wrongly.

Finally, I'm sure Ben Hogan was a breathtaking player, but from all I've heard about him, he was a mean, miserable individual, and that gives him the thumbs down in my book. Humanity before golf.

You should read more about the man since it appears your opinion about him is totally inadequate. Anyhow, it does not matter when we estimate sport achievements.

Cheers

 

[BIGBALL]

Dari,
Have you also thought about the fact that the media and people wanna see guys bear down on a driver, even if they hit it two planets over. Perhaps the cognoscenti like yourself and others are keen to see a more purist streak dominate, but for the guys who are not big-time into golf (the guys who make up the viewing figures, and make it worthwhile for TV stations to cover golf, and for money to be pumped into the sport and to grow the game, and to sell equipment AND to make golf fora worthwhile) they want some excitement, some big drives, some insane recovery shots, etc. If they want what your proposing, they can call up chess on youtube
Moreover, Dariusz, remember that Tour pros in this era are much fitter and stronger than their one and two generation-removed predecessors.

Absolutely spot on about the media and casual fans... equate this to what is going on in the NFL. The NFL and the media know the "casual" fan is only interested in high scoring offensive shootouts. They know the hardcore fan is going to watch football pretty much regardless of what they do, so of course they little by little are chipping away at what defenses can do to pander to the casual fan who prefers all that offense, so they can increase viewership, thus generate higher TV revenues. TV and money have changed a lot of things, some good, some bad, and sports may be the most changed...

 

[conkanen]

Dari,
Finally, I'm sure Ben Hogan was a breathtaking player, but from all I've heard about him, he was a mean, miserable individual, and that gives him the thumbs down in my book. Humanity before golf.

Sounds vaguely familiar.

 

[OLIVER1]

Yes, I know that. Media and money can spoil a lot of worthy things. And chess is a wonderful sport with a lot of excitement moments, believe me.
Cheers

Bottom line Dariusz is this: You can either have these whippersnapper tour pros of today who aren't a tenth as talented as one of Ben Hogan's nostril hairs, festooned with every logo imaginable, hitting it a gazillion miles all over the planet and going deep red figures every week...OR you can have the more purist-centric game you're after: 5 yard wide fairways, rough up to your knuckles and greens that run about -6 on the stimp. Thing is, if you opt for the latter, you'll never get to see it 'cos the casual fan won't give a rat's bum about it and the networks won't show it...Ironic, don't you think?

 

[magicmarker]

If you wanna focus on course architecture then that's fine with me, courses are faster and more manicured these days but they are also designed to be more challenging too, that's why guys can hit the green and watch it roll off into the water or bunker or collection area.....The greens are far more protected these days. 200+ yard par 3's are boring holes where pros just aim for the center of the green, I would like to see some more short par 3's with tight hole locations and see who will go for it and who won't.

What you describe darius isn't really golf though because someone could stripe it all day but if he keeps on two putting he won't move up most leaderboards. It's not really about how controlled someone can be from tee to green although that does help things. It is about finding a way to get in the hole in the fewest strokes and there are a variety of ways to do so, you seem to be confusing the course with the range.

bigball and oliver, I know you're right about the NFL but I used to play defense and I nearly pull my hair out watching games these days, I don't understand how to play defense under these rules. I loved the big hits, seeing quarterbacks get jacked up, James Harrison etc. but you're right I do still watch the games and that won't change, unless they stop airing Tebow games.

 

[magicmarker]

and chess ain't no f*#&ing sport.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Bottom line Dariusz is this: You can either have these whippersnapper tour pros of today who aren't a tenth as talented as one of Ben Hogan's nostril hairs, festooned with every logo imaginable, hitting it a gazillion miles all over the planet and going deep red figures every week...OR you can have the more purist-centric game you're after: 5 yard wide fairways, rough up to your knuckles and greens that run about -6 on the stimp. Thing is, if you opt for the latter, you'll never get to see it 'cos the casual fan won't give a rat's bum about it and the networks won't show it...Ironic, don't you think?

If not putting not-existing things into my mouth -- unnecessary sarcastic exaggeration. Who said that fairways should be 5-yard's wide ? or that awfully slow greens ?
I am opting for a fair game. If a pro cannot control his driver he should either be penalized adequately for his incompetence or start with an easier club with broken ego. Either - or. Casual fans should understand it since they are being put into such either-or situations everyday in their lives. That's life and not a fantasy land. If one wants fantasies one can always go watch reruns of StarWars or other similar childish stuff.

Cheers

 

[BIGBALL]

If you wanna focus on course architecture then that's fine with me, courses are faster and more manicured these days but they are also designed to be more challenging too, that's why guys can hit the green and watch it roll off into the water or bunker or collection area.....The greens are far more protected these days. 200+ yard par 3's are boring holes where pros just aim for the center of the green, I would like to see some more short par 3's with tight hole locations and see who will go for it and who won't.

What you describe darius isn't really golf though because someone could stripe it all day but if he keeps on two putting he won't move up most leaderboards. It's not really about how controlled someone can be from tee to green although that does help things. It is about finding a way to get in the hole in the fewest strokes and there are a variety of ways to do so, you seem to be confusing the course with the range.

bigball and oliver, I know you're right about the NFL but I used to play defense and I nearly pull my hair out watching games these days, I don't understand how to play defense under these rules. I loved the big hits, seeing quarterbacks get jacked up, James Harrison etc. but you're right I do still watch the games and that won't change, unless they stop airing Tebow games.

Yea, I played safety as well...I hate what they are doing to the game. That said, the defenses will adjust, but you won't have nearly the amount of "spectacular' hits and epic defensive struggles ( ala Ravens-Steelers). Sad IMO - and please NFL don't hand me the B.S about "The players best interest" All this said, I have to admiit I would much rather see golf today rather as compared to 30 years ago!

 

[Dariusz J.]

If you wanna focus on course architecture then that's fine with me, courses are faster and more manicured these days but they are also designed to be more challenging too, that's why guys can hit the green and watch it roll off into the water or bunker or collection area.....The greens are far more protected these days. 200+ yard par 3's are boring holes where pros just aim for the center of the green, I would like to see some more short par 3's with tight hole locations and see who will go for it and who won't.

Fine with me. But it has nothing to do with tee shots and FiR numbers.

What you describe darius isn't really golf though because someone could stripe it all day but if he keeps on two putting he won't move up most leaderboards. It's not really about how controlled someone can be from tee to green although that does help things. It is about finding a way to get in the hole in the fewest strokes and there are a variety of ways to do so, you seem to be confusing the course with the range.

Not at all. Excellent ballstriking could alone win the biggest tournaments, even with crappy putting. Now excellent ballstriking gives almost no advantage.

and chess ain't no f*#&ing sport.

You're f*&^ing wrong.

Cheers

 

[OLIVER1]

If not putting not-existing things into my mouth -- unnecessary sarcastic exaggeration. Who said that fairways should be 5-yard's wide ? or that awfully slow greens ?
I am opting for a fair game. If a pro cannot control his driver he should either be penalized adequately for his incompetence or start with an easier club with broken ego. Either - or. Casual fans should understand it since they are being put into such either-or situations everyday in their lives. That's life and not a fantasy land. If one wants fantasies one can always go watch reruns of StarWars or other similar childish stuff.

Cheers

It is a fair game, otherwise the best players wouldn't be where they are.
Why should casual fans understand it? They are 'casual' fans, ipso facto, they don't, whether it would be a good thing or not. Everyone is put into these situations in their everyday lives, but remember, they are CHOOSING to watch golf, not being pressganged into an unwanted choice by the immediacies/demands of life.
On a cheerier note, I hear Star Wars is being made into 3D. Means we can now see Darth Vader mow down Obi Wan Kenobi as good as we can see a coupling point in action!
Cheers

 

[magicmarker]

when a well hit tee shot hits a not so level fairway that is running around 10 on the stimpmeter and the ball stops rolling and resides in the rough THAT affects the stats, you KNOW THAT.

putt like crap and winning won't be easy, guaranteed.

Maybe you can elaborate on how someone who can be sitting at their computer playing chess constitutes "a game, competition or activity needing physical effort and skill." (sport) Chess lacks a certain physical component. Why not call foruming a sport too?

 

[mgranato]

...the problem is that media and people do not like to see incompetent pros - because they think they're Gods. They are NOT.

Cheers

Of all the posters on this site, who do you think does the most "worshiping" of a professional golfer?

The truth is, I hit just as many greens when I play as Hogan did. If I play two consecutive days on the same course, I usually land in my own divots. This may be hard to believe which is why I linked our stats for comparison.

Link to stats

 

[Dariusz J.]

when a well hit tee shot hits a not so level fairway that is running around 10 on the stimpmeter and the ball stops rolling and resides in the rough THAT affects the stats, you KNOW THAT.

Yes. That's why I said players should be strongly penalized for bad shots way off, not for a casual unlucky bounce. 15-20 yards off the fairway means meeting a very severe trouble.

putt like crap and winning won't be easy, guaranteed.?

Today impossible, I guess. Yesteryear - very tough but possible, especially on a demanding courses.

Maybe you can elaborate on how someone who can be sitting at their computer playing chess constitutes "a game, competition or activity needing physical effort and skill." (sport) Chess lacks a certain physical component. Why not call foruming a sport too?

Sport is a psychophysical activity aimed at competing, not only physical one. Besides, I've read somewhere that a long and exhausting chess game are much more physically devastating for an organism than a soccer match.
Lastly - a quote from Wikipedia - chess is a recognized sport by the International Olympic Committee with FIDE being the recognized International Sports Federation for chess since June 1999.

Cheers