Ever hit it sooooo good........

[LiftOff]

here's the thing:

Any good player...from scratch to PGA pro KNOWS THEIR SWING AND THEIR COMPONENTS THAT MAKE IT WORK.

Now most of these players just figured it out REALLLY fast. They don't care what component they are using (TGM wise) nor do they want too. They just know what their swing is and they just stick with it. That's why it's hard to get them to change to anything.

Poor players are always CONSTANTLY changing their components (whether it's consciously or subconsciously) and thus leading to inconsistency in their swing.

Those days when you just "get it" it's because you figured out a set of components that worked for you (whatever they were). However it may not have been something you naturally do so it went away and you couldn't recognize what it was.

So what do you do? Go back to "tinkering on the range" (ie chaning components). The secret to playing great golf and being consistent is picking a set a components that you can repeat (under pressure if playing tournament golf) and leave it alone.

Now that could me a bent left wrist and throwaway, but if you do it the same EVERY TIME, what does it matter?

----------

The above is why instructors who really know all the different parts of the swings can help someone so fast. They know what components they are using, which don't work together, and which the student can actually perform.

So we get you to "gel them" together and walla....all of a sudden you're hitting the ball great. Now it is up to you to learn what you have been taught and not to mess with it.

Jim: An extremely thought provoking post.

Guess I have the winter scoped out for me. Need to get in touch with 'all' the components.

Thanks, Cliff

 

[LiftOff]

Another thought

Jim: In making the transition from 'hack' to 'teacher', did you go through the components INDIVIDUALLY to determine what worked for you? If so, over what period of time did you 'tinker'? Can you explain the process you took?

Birdie Man: Don't want to steal this thread. I've been there too. Some days I can't believe how well I swing. BUT, while I remember the days and the swings, I can't repeat them. Mainly because I don't know what I did. BUT, I'm sneaking up on it. And I agree that you have to "know your swing" as Jim says. Down to the details.

Thanks, Cliff

 

[birdie_man]

Birdie Man: Don't want to steal this thread.

No worries. (honestly) It's all relevant. Good discussion.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jim: In making the transition from 'hack' to 'teacher', did you go through the components INDIVIDUALLY to determine what worked for you? If so, over what period of time did you 'tinker'? Can you explain the process you took?

Birdie Man: Don't want to steal this thread. I've been there too. Some days I can't believe how well I swing. BUT, while I remember the days and the swings, I can't repeat them. Mainly because I don't know what I did. BUT, I'm sneaking up on it. And I agree that you have to "know your swing" as Jim says. Down to the details.

Thanks, Cliff

Detailing everyhing would be a REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY long post but i'll put up the condensed version:

1) Hacker

- big bent left wrist
- big flipper
- too flat in the backswing
- above caused either an OTT move or a severe underplane move
- also reversed pivoted with no axis tilt

2) Never Slice Again

- better grip
- better setup
- started with it flat, did the twistaway, and get the flat left wrist throughout the entire swing
- Kinda a full roll hitting pattern however i know i was angle hinging

3) Never Hook Again

- Never Slice Again fixed many things in my swing including: pivot, open clubface issues, hinging issues, plane issues
- Learned to really hinge and started hooking it off the planet and swinging too far to the right
- Got Never Hook Again and all was well, not so much twistaway and more up than in which fixed the plane issues (still swing well with this pattern)
- Worked for a while

4) Migrated into a full roll swinging pattern

- Above worked until i started to full roll the face, then i had all kinds of issues
- Discovered the one arm wedge drill and perfected the "perfect pivot" (backswing only)
- Used what is very close to what Tomasello describes in his Australian videos
- Worked well (double shift to the elbow plane) except had a high right shoulder and forearm

5) Went to Orlando last year

- Fixed my setup (bent me over more)
- This lead me to learn how to get the right shoulder downplane (Thanks Tom!)
- This also let me to use a lagging clubhead takeaway because it felt right

6) Current pattern

- Normal setup if not a teeny bit more bent over
- Neutral Grip
- Lagging clubhead takeaway
- Double shift to the elbow plane
- Pretty close to a maximum trigger delay
- Perfected BOTH "perfect pivots"
- Looks very effortless but not quite as pretty as Finney's but i'm a hard critic

---------

That's been my progression and is usually what happens with my students:

They slice it
They hook it
I straighten it out
We maintain it

 

[JohnThomas1]

here's the thing:

Any good player...from scratch to PGA pro KNOWS THEIR SWING AND THEIR COMPONENTS THAT MAKE IT WORK.

Now most of these players just figured it out REALLLY fast. They don't care what component they are using (TGM wise) nor do they want too. They just know what their swing is and they just stick with it. That's why it's hard to get them to change to anything.

Poor players are always CONSTANTLY changing their components (whether it's consciously or subconsciously) and thus leading to inconsistency in their swing.

Those days when you just "get it" it's because you figured out a set of components that worked for you (whatever they were). However it may not have been something you naturally do so it went away and you couldn't recognize what it was.

So what do you do? Go back to "tinkering on the range" (ie chaning components). The secret to playing great golf and being consistent is picking a set a components that you can repeat (under pressure if playing tournament golf) and leave it alone.

Now that could me a bent left wrist and throwaway, but if you do it the same EVERY TIME, what does it matter?

----------

The above is why instructors who really know all the different parts of the swings can help someone so fast. They know what components they are using, which don't work together, and which the student can actually perform.

So we get you to "gel them" together and walla....all of a sudden you're hitting the ball great. Now it is up to you to learn what you have been taught and not to mess with it.

That's some great insight mate. You are definitely required reading.

 

[dbl]

My dad is a plus handicap and he always told me after a great round write down what you think you were doing right or feeling that day about your swing. After a while you start to see some of the same ideas or positions or thoughts and then you can start to see a pattern that you can refer too. Like most things my dad told me though, I never tried it. Stupid me.

Great idea. I do something like this. After each round I review my good play and poor play. I write down my closing swing thoughts, which are usually what I started with but with any nuance seen during the round.

And you are right, it makes things consistent week to week. Depends on how often you make major changes (me sometimes every 2-3 months) but I can look back at older notes and see pretty well what the intention or motion was.

 

[mrodock]

Videotaping your swing when you are hitting it really good and really bad and putting it on your computer so you can use a program like V1 to compare the good, bad, and the ugly can be useful.

 

[Perfect Impact]

The most important information you can get from a round of golf involves the following, and it is for every "bad" shot:

EXACTLY where on the clubface did impact occur? EXACTLY! and including what was the trajectory (low, high, left pull, right push, left hook, right slice, shank, topped, toed, heeled...) This is the MOST important info.

Without this, analysis is relatively meaningless since it does not specifiy exactly what needs attention.

To miss a green is helpful info, but not specific. It does not indicate the specific area of fault.

Underclubbing is a stat you need to keep;missing right, missing left, etc...

But GIR, FIR, Putts - all such stats are of little value without the specifics that get at the problem (always short on chips, long putts came up short, pulled putt, ....--these things are helpful data.)

 

[jbrunk]

Poor players are always CONSTANTLY changing their components

Guilty!

Although I am not a "poor" player, this was me up until about 2-3 months ago.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Making sense out this mess....

The THESIS of this thread was simple (but the explanation sometimes isn't):

"Sometimes you really hit it good, but then, as fast as it came, POOF it vanishes."

Ever look at the paper on day two of a PGA Tour event? Joe Blow shot 62 at Rancho Pitchinputt on Thursday, but followed it with a 75 on Friday.

Same as above.

Why?

Becuase the swing that you PLAY with today, is the result of FEELS that are ONLY FEELS for today. Like Homer Kelley liked to say (notice how I've learned to boldface Homer's name), you NEVER make precisely the same swing twice in a LIFETIME.

For example, let's say that Joe Blow had been working with a very good teacher that started teaching Joe when he had a bit of a SLICING/SCOOPING WEAK CONTACT problem. For clarity, we'll call the teacher "Herman Jones." Well, Mr. Jones had fixed Joe Blow's SLICING/SCOOPING WEAK CONTACT problem with a flatter left wrist and a better swivel, that Joe learned so well, that he, well, overlearned it a tad (left wrist a little arched and swivel a little early).

So at this point, the student is TRAPPING the BALL better, and HAS NO "under the sweetspot" problem becuase his wrist action had been simplified and (over) corrected.

Then "Herman Jones" needed to "temper" the Joe Blow's new hooking problem with a little yellow brick road/hip-hand-open clubface w/more body rotation. And the student was fine "in the middle" ---for a while.

But you see, Joe had NEVER got to the root of his problems---the root of everyones problem after all the "weeds" get "cut" so-to-speak---Mr. Blow couldn't have even passed ONE of Ben Doyle's bunker tests. Meaning, Joe couldn't hit a REALLY good pitch shot with correct (for him) hinge action to save his life. Something that, believe it or not, "Herman Jones" knew from day one.

Now, you may want to ask at this time:

"Why didn't Herman just show him how to "Do It Right."

Well, the answer is a little like this whole post, a little easy and a little hard.

Joe Blow had basically just wanted to be "fixed" and showed absolutely no desire for a major overhall as he needed to make cuts on the Tour to feed his family and keep his sponsers happy.

So, "Herman Jones" just fixed him one-step-at-a-time, slowly moving in for the time he could REALLY get Joe to "compress that ball with speed."

But, like happens on Tour everyday, Joe Blow saw another teacher (we'll call him "Pete Rogers").

Mr. Rogers looked at Joe and said that Joe's wrist was arched, and he wasn't hitting enough of the inside of the ball. He tought him to hit a nice little pitch---maybe one that would pass Ben's muster, but a big upgrade nonetheless---and allowed him to bend his wrist and swing more out to right field with less body rotation.

Which, of course, is everything that "Herman Jones" would have done at some point, but he was too busy "pulling weeds."

So, Joe Blow shoots 62 and gets on The Golf Channel and gives all the credit to his new teacher, Mr. Rogers.

Then he goes out and shoots 75, and is tied for 56th after two rounds.

What will Joe Blow shoot in the third round?

The point is, it doesn't matter.

Why did he shoot 62? Now that is the REAL question. And, why did he follow it with a 75? That is the WHOLE DAMN THREAD &Thesis!

No way to know without asking the man upstairs, but, for my money, "Herman Jones" pulled all the "weeds" and made "Mr. Rogers" lesson REALLY EASY.

And although that "Mr. Roger's" probably TAUGHT Joe bend his wrist too much and swing out to right field too much, Joe Blow didn't do either because he STILL HAD THE FEELS THAT "HERMAN" TAUGHT HIM INTO AND OUT OF.

This happens everyday whether or not it is "Jones & Rogers," Leadbetter & Harmon, Golf Digest & Golf Magazine, or The Golf Channel and one of these forums.

You play with and AGAINST the FEELS you have TODAY, and you play with the ideas you have today working with and against the ideas from yesterday.

And that's a fact, Jack.

The only hope for a student is to stick with one teacher long enough to actually find out if that teacher is selling the answer or the antidote---or both.

In the meantime, though, it don't make any difference if the 62's keep coming.

 

[birdie_man]

I'm onto it again Brian!!

Too early to tell but I will go out on a limb anyway...

No mirage!!



The funny thing is...

That it ALL matches up with the feels I remember that Fateful Night I Broke The 300 Tour. (FNIBT3T)

Updates to come; hopefully real good.

And ppl say STLOC is a farce...

I mean....the sound was different....the feel was different (FELT like my driver was gonna break on every hit)....the trajectory was different. (rockets)

Crazy how STLOC actually ISN'T real.

birdie_man,

This happened to me a couple months ago. The night before, I watched Mike Jacob's "Explosive Golf" dvd twice through. The ideas I took from the video to the range the next day was to swing with really relaxed arms and shoulders, and to just turn the club back with no thought about where the club was going. Kind of a "mindless backwswing". Then in the downswing, to pull the club as hard as possible with the lead arm.

The result was just what you described. The most solid drives of my life. Low screaming bullets. I kept looking at my driver face to make sure it was alright. It felt like the driver was going to explode! I was able to reproduce this result the next three or four trips to the range. I just didn't know what to make of it. It felt so different that it couldn't be right.....or could it?

I like it.

"Mindless backswing."

Whenever I am hitting it my best, it seems like the backswing might as well not even be there.

All I have is a vague, defocused sense (and perhaps image, in pre-shot) of motion and pace.

And much confidence.

Still hardly get there but it's neat when I do...and am optomistically hoping to up that frequency, of course.

But, at the end of the day, it was just a mirage.

I will be wading in the Oasis, with directions!!

(and coconuts)

sorry to take this off topic birdie man
maybe breaking down the swing into components might help you, so what are the main compenents? first start out with getting a solid set up, brian has some good articles on that, then from there you work on your pivot, and then work on your hands, then you should be swinging better and go back and re focus on set up, then pivot, then hands. each time you will get more refined and better at each.

This is the approach I needed.

More conformity to principles, "rules" (self-defined), and a plan. I am fairly results-oriented but can be too drawn into just randomly searching for a "bottom line." However I can get it.

(i.e. much spontaneous "trying things", with little analysis and actual planning)

I have tended to engage myself (ever-spontaneously) into Madd (two d's) Experementation.

I am somewhat OCD but I think spontaneous "change" in itself can become a habit.

Vs. analyze THEN change. (if needed)

Again, I'm not there yet but think I am on a very good track. If I think back to my most successful times there is much in common, mechanics and intent-wise.

Of course I dumbly never pursued (persisted with) thoroughly and smartly enough figuring out the things that I did when I was doing my best.

I agree with you shootin.

Perhaps a good lesson?:

If you have a career round or even range session or career drive...

You did something that was in line with what you need to be doing.

It's tempting to try stuff and fool around or whatever but be careful with RANDOM tinkering.

Know when to use Pointed Analysis.

 

[birdie_man]

To be honest, also...

I wonder how well I could have progressed from my Flippity-Doo-Dah swing if I wasn't trying for Max Trigger Delay, a "max-compression" (from "STLOC") impact, and lots of "hit down" and forward lean.

I would have needed to learn to hit down and add some forward shaft lean at some point.

(twistaway and full roll to learn/execute increased hit down and forward lean)

But I have to think not knowing about the D-Plane and trying for max STLOC did set me back.

But oh well.

 

[softconsult]

Absolutely! I had a two week period, playing around 3 or 4 times a week, where I was never over 73. This period included a 69.

The problem is it occurred around 1991 and has never re-occured!!

 

[birdie_man]

Wow man nearly twenty years eh. Golf really is nutty. (highs and lows and complexity)

You've never since hit it as good (even for a day) or never played/scored as well?

The truth is out there Steve. -Mulder



...

I realized I'm gonna have to always tinker somewhat...

I just read one of Dr. S-M's posts and I need to now try some things I haven't put much time into.

My feeling is that I can't miss out on any potential improvements, even being reasonably content right now.

I guess not everything can be calculated.

If I am hitting it well or even well enough tomorrow night I may put some new video up.

If not, I will retreat back to my Drawing Board. (the board I use to intelligently draw up plans)



I think and hope I may be pretty good to go.

It helped me to develop a Mid-Matrix minimal divot pattern and use it as a starting point to branch off from.

Alter/Develop (different patterns) from there. (to hit shots)

Low point control and true path is a big deal.

 

[JonWil]

The THESIS of this thread was simple (but the explanation sometimes isn't):

"Sometimes you really hit it good, but then, as fast as it came, POOF it vanishes."

Ever look at the paper on day two of a PGA Tour event? Joe Blow shot 62 at Rancho Pitchinputt on Thursday, but followed it with a 75 on Friday.

Same as above.

Why?

Becuase the swing that you PLAY with today, is the result of FEELS that are ONLY FEELS for today. Like Homer Kelley liked to say (notice how I've learned to boldface Homer's name), you NEVER make precisely the same swing twice in a LIFETIME.

For example, let's say that Joe Blow had been working with a very good teacher that started teaching Joe when he had a bit of a SLICING/SCOOPING WEAK CONTACT problem. For clarity, we'll call the teacher "Herman Jones." Well, Mr. Jones had fixed Joe Blow's SLICING/SCOOPING WEAK CONTACT problem with a flatter left wrist and a better swivel, that Joe learned so well, that he, well, overlearned it a tad (left wrist a little arched and swivel a little early).

So at this point, the student is TRAPPING the BALL better, and HAS NO "under the sweetspot" problem becuase his wrist action had been simplified and (over) corrected.

Then "Herman Jones" needed to "temper" the Joe Blow's new hooking problem with a little yellow brick road/hip-hand-open clubface w/more body rotation. And the student was fine "in the middle" ---for a while.

But you see, Joe had NEVER got to the root of his problems---the root of everyones problem after all the "weeds" get "cut" so-to-speak---Mr. Blow couldn't have even passed ONE of Ben Doyle's bunker tests. Meaning, Joe couldn't hit a REALLY good pitch shot with correct (for him) hinge action to save his life. Something that, believe it or not, "Herman Jones" knew from day one.

Now, you may want to ask at this time:

"Why didn't Herman just show him how to "Do It Right."

Well, the answer is a little like this whole post, a little easy and a little hard.

Joe Blow had basically just wanted to be "fixed" and showed absolutely no desire for a major overhall as he needed to make cuts on the Tour to feed his family and keep his sponsers happy.

So, "Herman Jones" just fixed him one-step-at-a-time, slowly moving in for the time he could REALLY get Joe to "compress that ball with speed."

But, like happens on Tour everyday, Joe Blow saw another teacher (we'll call him "Pete Rogers").

Mr. Rogers looked at Joe and said that Joe's wrist was arched, and he wasn't hitting enough of the inside of the ball. He tought him to hit a nice little pitch---maybe one that would pass Ben's muster, but a big upgrade nonetheless---and allowed him to bend his wrist and swing more out to right field with less body rotation.

Which, of course, is everything that "Herman Jones" would have done at some point, but he was too busy "pulling weeds."

So, Joe Blow shoots 62 and gets on The Golf Channel and gives all the credit to his new teacher, Mr. Rogers.

Then he goes out and shoots 75, and is tied for 56th after two rounds.

What will Joe Blow shoot in the third round?

The point is, it doesn't matter.

Why did he shoot 62? Now that is the REAL question. And, why did he follow it with a 75? That is the WHOLE DAMN THREAD &Thesis!

No way to know without asking the man upstairs, but, for my money, "Herman Jones" pulled all the "weeds" and made "Mr. Rogers" lesson REALLY EASY.

And although that "Mr. Roger's" probably TAUGHT Joe bend his wrist too much and swing out to right field too much, Joe Blow didn't do either because he STILL HAD THE FEELS THAT "HERMAN" TAUGHT HIM INTO AND OUT OF.

This happens everyday whether or not it is "Jones & Rogers," Leadbetter & Harmon, Golf Digest & Golf Magazine, or The Golf Channel and one of these forums.

You play with and AGAINST the FEELS you have TODAY, and you play with the ideas you have today working with and against the ideas from yesterday.

And that's a fact, Jack.

The only hope for a student is to stick with one teacher long enough to actually find out if that teacher is selling the answer or the antidote---or both.

In the meantime, though, it don't make any difference if the 62's keep coming.

Is it just me or is Brian someone pretty special?

 

[spktho]

Man, I suck at acronyms. What is STLOC?

 

[softconsult]

Birdie Man asks whether I have never played that well since my magic 2 week moment. I'm sure there was the random even par round, but it was repeating it multiple times in a couple of weeks that was so amazing. This was still the era of the rubber band ball, and I think I still had persimmon woods. Maybe a Big Bertha just before I quit cold turkey from 1994 - 2004 due to starting my consulting company. No time for golf.

When I started back at age 59 it was a struggle and it hurt more the next day. Monday I played in my Senior League tournament. Played with a 2 and a 7 in the lead cart. The 7 shot 73 with 3 doubles and 5 birdies, the 4 shot 74, I shot 76 with no birdies, and no doubles. On the third to the last hole the scratch guy encouraged me to keep it up. I promptly missed a 3 footer, but then parred the last two holes.

I'm slowly getting closer and closer to some really good scores, or maybe not.
Who knows. The fun is in the trying.

 

[ZAP]

Threads like this one are why I liked this place so much from the beginning.
A couple of Bryan's videos have taught me more about the swing than 20 years of playing and reading.

I will be getting the whole library at some point soon for my winter swing work.

Signed,

Just scratching the surface

 

[EdStraker]

Man, I suck at acronyms. What is STLOC?

It is a Golfing Machine acronym for Sustain the Line of compression

 

[watson08]

Is it just me or is Brian someone pretty special?

The thought has crossed my mind...