Explanations

[Dariusz J.]

Who gives a shit? SERIOUSLY

I don't even follow all of the rants on this site because they are POINTLESS

What does anyone get out of life arguing about X is better than Y? You are NOT X and you are NOT Y

NOBODY on this whole F'n planet can say who the best golfer ever is. END OF STORY

PS Go study Babe Ruth or something

I do. I am interested to run my studies on most repeatable motions. It is obvious I'd need to analyze the motions of the most consistent golfers. It is indispensable to determine who's game relied on great tee-to-green play.

Ken Venturi - "Hogan would literally go weeks without missing a three footer."

Did he say also how many of these three footers were his third putts on a hole ?


An excerpt from a rare but astoundingly good Middlecoff's book ("The Golf Swing", p.32):

"In any golf-oriented conversation, the mere mention of Hogan's name would prompt somebody to say that Hogan could still win any tournament he entered if only he could putt. And this was, if not pure fact, pretty close to it. He could, well over a decade after he won his last major championship in 1953 and was nearing the age of fifty-five, consistently hit shots with amazing power and accuracy. And it is certainly true that in those latter years he was just a plain bad putter, particularily from the 3- to 5-foot range.

(In May of 1967 the editor of this book went on assignment from Golf Digest magazine to what has so far turned out to be one of Hogan's last appearances as a competitor - the Colonial National Invitational Open at Fort Worth, Texas. The idea was to watch Hogan play every shot for the full 72 holes and determine, as far as possible, whether he was in fact the best shotmaker in golf from tee to green. Hogan shot 281 for a third-place tie with George Archer. On the 281 shots, 141 were taken in reaching the greens. Of the 141, 139 were rated from well-executed to superbly executed. The remaining two were a drive that missed the fairway by some 5 yards and a 5-iron to a par-3 hole that missed the green by about the same distance. It was difficult, if not impossible to conceive of anybody hitting the ball better over a four-day span.)

Would you do the calculations about FIR, GIR and number of putts for a 55-years old veteran ? Or is it not necessary any more ? Out of 4 rounds he had to hit every fairway in 3 full rounds; he also had to hit every GIR in 3 full rounds -- that makes at least 2 perfect rounds with 100% FIR and GIR. Number of putts: 281 - 141 = 140 : 4 rounds = 35 putts per round.
Do you honestly believe someone else could be in top three of a big tournament averaging 35 putts per round ??? Answer honestly.


These are kind of infos that made me think Hogan must have been exceptional in ballstriking (especially, under pressure). And I have many of these.

Cheers

 

[Virtuoso]

I'd love to see Hogan stripe the ball in person, that would be sweet. But I wouldn't want to watch him play in a modern day tour event. The greens are so much faster now, he'd probably 4-wack most of them. It's good he played when he did. I don't know if he could even keep his tour card in modern times.

 

[Matt 4-L]

I'd love to see Hogan stripe the ball in person, that would be sweet. But I wouldn't want to watch him play in a modern day tour event. The greens are so much faster now, he'd probably 4-wack most of them. It's good he played when he did. I don't know if he could even keep his tour card in modern times.

 

[Dariusz J.]

I'd love to see Hogan stripe the ball in person, that would be sweet.

We must base our opinions on others who were lucky enough to see him in action -- exemplary posts found in the net:

"I'm 62, and in 1964, my HS golf team set the (then) national record for consecutive victories at 144 (if my memory serves). The school decided to reward the team members by sending them to a golf tournament, so we all went to the Thunderbird Classic held at Westchester CC in Harrison, NY. I got to the course and immediately went inside and found Hogan (I didn't realize who it was) practicing by himself. He was hitting 200 yd 3 irons..the caddy never moved his feet and caught 8 or 10 in a row on one bounce. I finally screwed up my courage and asked this little old man what was that all about when he hit one about 15 feet left of the caddy and signaled the caddy to not put that ball back in the shag bag. He replied "The ball's not round" with no further explanation. I decided to follow this guy Hogan and witnessed the finest display of ball striking I ever saw or will see. As I recall, he hit 70 of 72 greens in regulation and could not buy a putt. If I'd putted for him he would have won by 6 srokes, at least. Tony Lema beat Arnold Palmer in a playoff, but my hero was Hogan, and I've played Hogan irons primarily ever since."

"I saw Hogan play in a US open at Baltusrol in 1954. I was a caddie there and knew the course well. He hit every the shot in exactly the right place, hit every green and two putted every green from no more than 20 feet on any hole and shot 1 under.
He was the best ball striker I have ever seen but by that time his putting was going and he froze over the ball for long periods on most putts."

"I was playing college golf in 1978 and we used to practice at a club in Houston.
One day coach asked us if we wanted to see mr Hogan hit balls, he was in town visiting friends.
So we watched. Forget about anything you hear about these guys today, there are no ball strikers. Period. Anybody who saw Mr Hogan play or hit balls will never foget that sound, or those laser beams that seemed like they had eyes. Even in his 60's, he crushed it.
Being a 18 year old kid at the time I was mesmorized."


Such little stories from amateurs influenced me as well as these from the greats. They are very telling what whe should have expected to see.

Cheers

 

[AndyC]

Ken Venturi - "Hogan would literally go weeks without missing a three footer."

If Hogan never missed fairways or greens and went weeks without missing a 3 footer wouldn't you expect his scoring average to be about 65?

 

[faux_maestro]

If Hogan never missed fairways or greens and went weeks without missing a 3 footer wouldn't you expect his scoring average to be about 65?

Shhhh.......you are making sense....

 

[magicmarker]

He either:

A. Couldn't stick it 'close enough'

or

B. Was as poor at putting as he was great at ball-striking

 

[rogerdodger]

Not sure what point is being proven or disproven any more? Is it that Hogan was a great ballstriker or that he was not? Funny how the premise that he was a lousy putter is necessary to boost his ballstriking reputation. Golf includes putting. The rules of golf contemplates as many strokes taken for putting than any other shot. When discussing great golfers, ignoring their ability to putt is senseless if one pays attention to the scorecard. Hogan got yippy as he got older, big deal, he chose to quit rather than go side saddle like Snead or even split handed, which he apparently tried in practice. Not sure why I spent the last few minutes arguing about whether Ben Hogan could putt. In any event, if he could'nt putt, he would not have won as much as he did.

 

[dschultz6072]

Putting should only count for half a stroke.

 

[ZAP]

Putting should only count for half a stroke.

+9999999999999999

It does not even seem like the same game.

 

[magicmarker]

???

Who wants to drain one from the fringe and then watch their buddy get two putts to tie?

Depending on the hole location missing the green can provide you with a better position than places on the green itself. How would the half stroke account for these discrepancies.

I vote no

 

[dschultz6072]

It was just a joke. Read it in that short story Golf Digest printed a while ago about Hogan, Snead, and Nelson all having a conversation as they watched Tiger play a practice round. I think Snead said it.

 

[magicmarker]

I thought you were referencing a Hogan quote... or trying to ruffle dariusz's feathers by pretending to agree with his ongoing sentiments.

 

[rogerdodger]

Golf is about equal opportunity to compete. In no other sport can a wider group of people compete. Handicap system allows this for sure, but putting requires a different athletic skill than hitting a three wood off the ground. It is possible to play good golf successfully by chipping and putting like a demon. i.e. Runyon v. Snead. Turning golf into a hitting game only would be fine if we played on driving ranges instead of golf courses. The only thing preventing golf from being a perfect game is that it takes too long and is too expensive. If we only play golf to hit fairways and greens, it would be an incredibly dull game, sorry Ben.

 

[mgranato]

Golf is about equal opportunity to compete. In no other sport can a wider group of people compete. Handicap system allows this for sure, but putting requires a different athletic skill than hitting a three wood off the ground. It is possible to play good golf successfully by chipping and putting like a demon. i.e. Runyon v. Snead. Turning golf into a hitting game only would be fine if we played on driving ranges instead of golf courses. The only thing preventing golf from being a perfect game is that it takes too long and is too expensive. If we only play golf to hit fairways and greens, it would be an incredibly dull game, sorry Ben.

Like it. If golf is about scoring - getting it in the hole, then golf is what happens on/around the greens. It's where the true mental grit and anguish of the game become most notable.

What has ended the careers of more golfers? The ability to hit solid 3 irons, or the ability to make 3 footers?

 

[wulsy]

Strangely, that is something I have never really understood - loosing the ability to hit the ball into the hole from 3 feet whilst retaining the ability to drill a 3 iron to 3 feet is somehow just really perverse.

 

[JonWil]

Strangely, that is something I have never really understood - loosing the ability to hit the ball into the hole from 3 feet whilst retaining the ability to drill a 3 iron to 3 feet is somehow just really perverse.

I think on the three footers the heavy hand of expectation pushes some right out of the higher levels.

 

[faux_maestro]

Strangely, that is something I have never really understood - loosing the ability to hit the ball into the hole from 3 feet whilst retaining the ability to drill a 3 iron to 3 feet is somehow just really perverse.

That's golf. It's a cruel game.

 

[Nitro7]

I attended the Masters six times in the '60's. One of the players who beat Hogan head-to-head
to win the Masters in the '40's was a very close friend. We had complete access to the practice
area and clubhouse, so we got to meet and watch most all the players close up. Herman made
sure of that.

First time we met Hogan was the 1962 tournament. The Thursday round was the first time I saw
him play. He barely broke 80. Of the 20 rounds I got to see him play at the Masters he was over
par way more than under par (13 to 6). I think he was in the '60's twice. The highlight was his
back nine in the third round in '67, which we got to see most of those nine holes.

To say I'm a loser and an idiot and I lack a sense of golf history and I'm clueless about Hogan,
well, I disagree. Hogan was a great ball striker for sure. Personally, I thought Snead had a better
swing and hit the ball just as good as Hogan. If I had to choose between watching Hogan or Snead,
I would choose Sammy. Hogan has the mystique, but there were other players who were great ball
strikers too. Maybe different type ball flight, but, performed with great precision. JMHO

The first time I saw Nicklaus was 1960. He was a student at OSU. My Dad was an All-American in
the 40's at Ohio State and back then they had an Alumni Tournament every year where past team
members would come and play the current team. Over the years I have spent time with Jack and
knew his son's Gary and Jackie because a very good friend and student of mine who played the
Tour back in the '90's was represented by the Nicklaus Management Co. Thing about Jack is, he
doesn't care that much about who was the best ball striker of all time. He was the best golfer of
all time and he knows it. He loved Jones and had high praise for Snead. Funny thing, most of the
conversations with Jack were not about golf. Mostly hunting and fishing.

The thing that bothers me at times are guys like Dariusz, Jeffy, Jeff Mann, footwedge, dap, et al.,
think they are Hogan experts and they never saw him hit a single shot. How can you be an expert
without hearing contact and seeing the ball flight or saying he was the absolute best ball striker
without ever seeing any of the other players? To me, that's preposterous, I don't give a damn
what they have read or interviews they have watched. I have read and watched all that stuff too.

I'm probably coming off as some know it all, but, I'm really not. Because of my Dad and Herman,
I got to experience and learn a lot at a very young age, and it is the reason I have played the game
as well as I have all these years. Sorry guys for the rant, I feel weird saying all this stuff. Trust me,
this is the last time I will give Dariusz a reply about Hogan. Obsession sure can get out of hand.

BTW, rogerdodger is spot on with his post #29. Hogan putted well often. I watched him do it many
times. But, I also watched him hit some poorly struck full shots too. That's golf and it's the same for
everyone.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Not sure what point is being proven or disproven any more? Is it that Hogan was a great ballstriker or that he was not?

The point is that my posts about Hogan and overall interest in his swing aren't a religion or myths ! If one reads such things (examples both from the greats and ordinary people are included in the thread earlier) that are supposed to have no sign of overestimation -- one starts to believe in that. You may believe or not, but I am having some anonymous overexaggerated opinions in disregard and I did not need them to colnclude that post-secret Hogan was the man.
Opposite to what you may think about me, I am a very methodic man. When I started my researches about the setup-dependent automatic motion and the model of the motion started to emerge I was very glad to see that, in the majority of cases, the biophysical phenomena were easy to be found in Hogan's motion.

I attended the Masters six times in the '60's. One of the players who beat Hogan head-to-head
to win the Masters in the '40's was a very close friend. We had complete access to the practice
area and clubhouse, so we got to meet and watch most all the players close up. Herman made
sure of that.

First time we met Hogan was the 1962 tournament. The Thursday round was the first time I saw
him play. He barely broke 80. Of the 20 rounds I got to see him play at the Masters he was over
par way more than under par (13 to 6). I think he was in the '60's twice. The highlight was his
back nine in the third round in '67, which we got to see most of those nine holes.

To say I'm a loser and an idiot and I lack a sense of golf history and I'm clueless about Hogan,
well, I disagree. Hogan was a great ball striker for sure. Personally, I thought Snead had a better
swing and hit the ball just as good as Hogan. If I had to choose between watching Hogan or Snead,
I would choose Sammy. Hogan has the mystique, but there were other players who were great ball
strikers too. Maybe different type ball flight, but, performed with great precision. JMHO

The first time I saw Nicklaus was 1960. He was a student at OSU. My Dad was an All-American in
the 40's at Ohio State and back then they had an Alumni Tournament every year where past team
members would come and play the current team. Over the years I have spent time with Jack and
knew his son's Gary and Jackie because a very good friend and student of mine who played the
Tour back in the '90's was represented by the Nicklaus Management Co. Thing about Jack is, he
doesn't care that much about who was the best ball striker of all time. He was the best golfer of
all time and he knows it. He loved Jones and had high praise for Snead. Funny thing, most of the
conversations with Jack were not about golf. Mostly hunting and fishing.

The thing that bothers me at times are guys like Dariusz, Jeffy, Jeff Mann, footwedge, dap, et al.,
think they are Hogan experts and they never saw him hit a single shot. How can you be an expert
without hearing contact and seeing the ball flight or saying he was the absolute best ball striker
without ever seeing any of the other players? To me, that's preposterous, I don't give a damn
what they have read or interviews they have watched. I have read and watched all that stuff too.

I'm probably coming off as some know it all, but, I'm really not. Because of my Day and Herman,
I got to experience and learn a lot at a very young age, and it is the reason I have played the game
as well as I have all these years. Sorry guys for the rant, I feel weird saying all this stuff. Trust me,
this is the last time I will give Dariusz a reply about Hogan. Obsession sure can get out of hand.

BTW, rogerdodger is spot on with his post #29. Hogan putted well often. I watched him do it many
times. But, I also watched him hit some poorly struck full shots too. That's golf and it's the same for
everyone.

Well, what can I say -- I do owe a huge apologies to you then. This is the stupid side of being anonymous -- if you wrote this presentation in your first post, I would never treat you as an ordinary anti-Hogan member of this forum who simply has his own agenda.
Althopug I still do not know who you are, now, it is a great honour to meet you (you're fourth Tour player whom I exchange words with and, for a Pole it is something, believe me).

I have no doubts what you wrote is the truth. However, I still do not understand the very big disproportion between your story above (Hogan being more ordinary man) and the selected (!) stories of other tour players as e.g. Middlecoff's story (Hogan being a ballstriking god). The only one sane explanation that comes to my mind is that the rounds Hogan played well for his standards included ballstriking on an unattainable level for others while there was also rounds where his ballstriking wasn't so impressive -- and, of course, the first ones are only remembered and described.

Anyhow, many thanks for your post, Sir. Again, I apologize for my words in which sound unbelieveably stupid now.


Cheers

P.S. I guess Mods can close and delete the thread soon if you wish -- almost all is explained, I believe and what I said in the end of my initial post is valid.