Extending flat spot

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Those having spent some time studying TGM are likely accustomed with the concept of 'Geometry of the Circle'. It might perhaps come as a surprise but, even if a bit contrived, it is possible to have the clubhead nevertheless follow a perfect straight line trajectory for quite some time through impact, as shown in the figure. It should make it more acceptable the idea that one can extend the flat spot, or shallowing a steep approach path, mainly with an upward motion of the lead shoulder joint.

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It's weird but when I have had my best ballstriking days it felt like I extended my flat spot. Feels like my left shoulder is the anchor and I just have pull up ever so slightly in addition to straightening my left knee. Madrin I assume another component that would extend the flat spot is the straightening of the lead knee?
 
Mandrin I assume another component that would extend the flat spot is the straightening of the lead knee?


tennisdu,

Yes, indeed. Straightening of the lead knee is acting through the lead shoulder by raising the lead side of the body. As always there are various ways to skin a cat.
 

TeeAce

New member
I guess this gonna be interesting and I hope everyone is ready to keep open mind and think what really happens.

This way the geometry is quite simple and quite much connected to release and wrist angle. We know hands and left shoulder are rising at impact so the wrist is the only solution.

Relative to the target line it will be much more complicated when hands are moving in already but face can still stay on line and square.
 
Just as the upward movement of the CP "levels" out the down movement of the clubhead as the wrists release, the inward motion of the hands is also offset by the outward movement of the clubhead as the wrist releases. Allows for the "flat spots" both in relation to the ground as well as the path. Makes sense to me.

Bruce
 
Mandrin,

I assume this means that the sweet spot remains 90 degrees to the centre of the ball. Could you do a diagram showing how this happens?
drewyallop,

I am not quite sure about your question. I assume that you are referring to the sweetspot velocity vector and its relation to a line connecting sweet spot and center of ball.

The general idea behind flattening the club head trajectory is to diminish timing issues hence improving consistency in shot making. But that does not mean it has been eliminated. The trajectory of the clubhead, in a real golf swing, is never a perfect straight line through the impact zone and the club face orientation will still keep changing through the impact zone but to a lesser degree.

In Golf Digest June 1983 there is an interesting article “A tour guru's secret: lengthen your flat spot” by Phil Rodgers.

His approach is presented as being controversial and provocative. Phil Rodgers, besides teaching Jack Nicklaus, also taught David Graham, Billy Casper and Amy Alcott.

Just the first paragraph to give some idea.

“A couple of years ago Jack Nicklaus had lost quite a bit of distance off the tee. But he got it all back and then some without increasing his clubhead speed one mile per hour. He actually picked up 30 yards – and improved his accuracy – by discovering “the flat spot”.

Some text relates to the discussions in the release thread.

“I don't believe that you can release the club too early, or start hitting too soon. All this talk about a “late release” or “saving your hit” - don't believe it. You want to get the club moving as fast as possible through impact, and you have a much better chance of doing that if you start releasing from the top of the downswing”.
 
I LOVE THIS.

There's a well know teacher that loves saying "what part of a circle is straight?" That never sat well, but I never possessed the faculties to explain why you can have a flat/straight line in a swing.

Smart people rule. :)
 
Mandrin - are you saying, as Phil Rodgers seems to be implying, that a straighter clubhead path through impact leads to a greater transfer of kinetic energy to the ball?
 
Thanks Mandrin.

The trajectory of the clubhead, in a real golf swing, is never a perfect straight line through the impact zone and the club face orientation will still keep changing through the impact zone but to a lesser degree.

I am probably misinterpreting but a straight line seems to be what Brian's picture is showing. Or is the change too small to be seeable?

Great quotes. More evidence that these teachers are on the right path.
 
Mandrin I have a couple of questions...

1. In releasing the clubhead early from the top of the downswing, doesn't this increase the MOI around the rotating human and thus not allow as much rotational speed from the body to be transmitted to the club. I have been thinking quite a bit about MOI as it relates to where the arms and club are on the downswing. Any help along those lines would be much appreciated.

2. I thought that as the clubhead releases and starts to speed up that the hands will slow down. Also, as the hands slow down the clubhead will speed up, they sort of "work" off of each other to create speed. My question is this: If the hands are not allowed to gain some speed before the clubhead releases, wouldn't this scenario of "releasing early" be less efficient in terms of clubhead speed?

Forgive me if I am way off on this one. Just some thoughts floating around in my head.

Interesting questions Jon.

Some observations on question 1 from personal experience with the new release:

My rotational speed is much higher with the early release, to the point I have to dial back the toss to keep balanced. And I don't have any sense that it comes from increased muscular effort. In fact most muscular effort comes from trying to provide a stable platform for the swing and going normal. Mike Jacobs coined a nice metaphor in his latest video: "think of the body as a launching pad" (man has a way with metaphor).

Although I feel that the club/arms are generating all the rotational energy this is probably wrong. Surely there is a synergy here with the body being driven down into the ground as a reaction to the acceleration of the club and the muscles generating stabilizing force. Then the ground feeding back an equal and opposite force that further increases rotational acceleration. But now I am getting over my head and I will turn it over to Mandrin.
 
Hello mandrin.

I know it must depend on a lot of things, but when/where might a golfer want the flat spot to start?

Is it something to initiate early, or late? Or depends?

Thanks mandrino.
 
Mandrin - are you saying, as Phil Rodgers seems to be implying, that a straighter clubhead path through impact leads to a greater transfer of kinetic energy to the ball?
birly-shirly,

If someone claims that without increasing clubhead speed an increased carry is obtained there isn't much leeway – it tends to imply a greater kinetic energy transfer at impact. Spin also might come into the picture.
 
“I don't believe that you can release the club too early, or start hitting too soon. All this talk about a “late release” or “saving your hit” -don't believe it. You want to get the club moving as fast as possible through impact, and you have a much better chance of doing that if you start releasing from the top of the downswing”.
How does that apply to Dustin Johnson for example. Seems to me that there are a ton of big hitters whose hands are doing little or nothing early in the downswing. They aren't trying to drag or pull them down plane, nor are they trying to release from the top or move them away from the target. I see a lot of closing the gap, throwing off the drunk, pulling up of the handle, etc........ but there are a lot of folks that don't have, or at least don't appear to have toss out. Someone like Mandrin is so much smarter than me we probably cant even have a conversation, but how would closing the gap later not produce more speed?
Why do long drivers get so narrow then catch up? All of their kinematic sequence numbers are probably similar if you were to hook them up on a k-vest I would think.......?
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
I will ask the question again to Dr. Zick at AS2 just to have it "on the record."

This is what he said:

IF you lose rotational speed from the arms getting away from the body, you more than make up for it and actually INCREASE your clubhead speed applying torque at the right time.
 
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