Extending flat spot
- Thread starter mandrin
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mandrin
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Jon Hardesty said:
Jon,
The paradox to take into account is that there is not a one to one relationship between a math model or robot and a real golfer. For instance, a math model / robot will always produce more speed when using a longer back swing. A human golfer shortening his back swing will frequently not lose any. Releasing early in a math model is exactly that, releasing early. A human golfer however, trying, might possibly do exactly the opposite. This is where the teacher needs to do some tricky explaining when questioned by the curious analytical golfer student.
I always liked the expression, 'invisible exertions', coined by George Hibbard. It is in line with your efforts to go after the exploring the kinetics of the swing. Perhaps a possible way to explain a late release obtained when trying to obtain an early release is to explore the realm of these 'invisible exertions'. When we feel doing one thing we are in effect possibly doing quite something different. The human body is a darned complex machine, controlled not only by muscles but also by feelings. I don't think that the few teachers over time clearly teaching an early release have been giving succinct explanations of their ideas.
Someone seeing the swing as a kinetic chain event might possibly view a free wheeling type swing as consisting of two phases. The first phase used to generate adequate rotational energy and the second to let the accumulated energy at least partially redistribute itself towards the club simply by letting things go. However someone hitting is going to override this transfer and is more relying on a continuous generation of muscle generated fresh energy up to and including impact.
I have always thought that a promising way to research the golf swing is to have an expert golfer, really owning his swing, being strapped to sophisticated machinery available nowadays. Have him do all kind of specific things and continuously compare collected data with his observations and feelings and do this with several excellent golfers. It is this way that perhaps one can start to unravel these 'invisible exertions' at the heart of a good golf swing. Hence confronting continuously and intelligently facts and feelings.
More specifically your questions.
-1- If indeed you do release early you do increase the MOI, hence decreasing angular acceleration for a given torque. MOI is a measure of the distance squared of all the mass elements relative to a common axis of rotation. Keep them close to the axis and you minimize the MOI.
-2- You actually refer to a kinetic chain action. If the inner core is not generating adequate angular velocity it also can't generate/redistribute as much at the distal end. But the efficiency of the transfer action might still be similar.
birly-shirly
New
I agree about what Phil obviously thinks. But I was asking whether you thought that this was accurate, from a physics standpoint.
Frans@France
New
IMHO without measurements what happened really we can we trust his explanation ? To me this kind of explanations are the same as explanations about the swing based on people feelings
I have to say I don't understand whole thing about hands moving away from target. For me it's totally depended of the length of the backswing. Maybe I've missed something, but as far it's quite close to circle, the out point in that relation is when the left arm is parallel to the ground.
Whole thing should be much more discussed about differences how much than to what direction and then why.
I have seen god players without moving hands away from the target and those who move. When watching more specific things, thats depended of many other things that IMO are more interesting that where the hands move.
Shot Limit
New
For lack of a better way of asking, would a straighter clubhead path through impact equate to less of a glancing blow, thus equating to more smash factor?
Not sure if we're on the same page here but this question reminded me of something Brian mentioned in the release video about a straight punch with a fist. If I was hammering a nail, I'd want the hammer's path to be as straight as possible into the head of the nail so the strike would be more effective. I know it's a loaded analogy, but it seems related.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
One of the things that bug me the most, is when we have to revisit something we already know.
Geez....
FACTS:
1. If you keep your arms close to the body, you can rotate faster. But rotation by itself will not hit the ball very far at all.
2. Every test, trial, model, done forward or backward all say that there is basically one period of time where the golfer can speed up a club by exerting pressure against it. That's mid downswing.
3. To do #2, you HAVE TO GET YOUR HANDS will move away from you, somewhat slowing the rotation.
4. To be able to use the parametric acceleration of "going normal" on the downswing, you have to get fairly wide to use it. Another "away from you" move, slowing the rotation.
5. Every decent golfers downswing hand path is WIDER—relative to the hub—then the backswing.
Repeat, then rinse.
Whew.....
Geez....
FACTS:
1. If you keep your arms close to the body, you can rotate faster. But rotation by itself will not hit the ball very far at all.
2. Every test, trial, model, done forward or backward all say that there is basically one period of time where the golfer can speed up a club by exerting pressure against it. That's mid downswing.
3. To do #2, you HAVE TO GET YOUR HANDS will move away from you, somewhat slowing the rotation.
4. To be able to use the parametric acceleration of "going normal" on the downswing, you have to get fairly wide to use it. Another "away from you" move, slowing the rotation.
5. Every decent golfers downswing hand path is WIDER—relative to the hub—then the backswing.
Repeat, then rinse.
Whew.....
birly-shirly
New
That's exactly the issue, as I envisage it. Of course, the hammer analogy is complicated by golf clubs having loft. I'm just not sure whether the difference in curvature of 2 different, real clubhead arcs (one being "flattened") is enough to make a practical, discernible difference to ballspeed.
birly-shirly
New
Obscured on video/stills by the hub having moved targetward - yes?
Is it?
Solid line is bacswing.
Sorry I can't put more numbers for this capture, but this is relative to the upper torso point
And I would call few time Europeantour winner at least decent.
Steve Greffen
New
Is it?
Solid line is bacswing.
Sorry I can't put more numbers for this capture, but this is relative to the upper torso point
And I would call few time Europeantour winner at least decent.
Relative to the hub...
Sorry to get everyone off "extending the flat spot". I hope we can get back to it. I was merely stating that the feels of out toss, or away from you, or releasing early would obviously make sense for Jack Nicklaus.........from the top, that's a big old gap to close. But what about J.B. Holmes, or a Lehman, or someone that does so much late loading. How about Stricker? Wouldn't it make sense that if someone had a short backswing with very little wrist cock at top, that to feel an early releasing would be a disaster? Trust me, I know the pattern is correct, and the closing of the gap, drunk off back, up of the handle is common for SO MANY great players, and it works.....but it's not (and I dont think anyone is saying it is) universal. Brian: sorry if my post is what started the "bugging"; it would take a lot of hours everyday to stay up to date on this forum and make sure you never revisited any thoughts. My apologies!!!!
Where is your hub?
drewyallop
New
Not relevant and does not require an answer but an interesting comment form my son, a framing contractor who hits a lot of nails. He tells me that the most effective method is to angle the blow downward and hit the nail with the top part of the face and sort of let the face slide of the nail head. Gives best head acceleration and nail goes in straight contrary to intuition. Course no science to back it up and the kid does have arms like Scwarznegger.
drewyallop
New
BM on another thread said the out toss is only for the longest of backswings. Can I suggest that we do some thread reading before bringing "new" assertions and questions to the forum?
Shot Limit
New
I think it's totally relevant. I mean you are swinging the hammer in an arc right? It's just the way he lines up the hammer for impact and creates his flat spot. In a sense, you trying to go normal on a smaller scale. You don't want drag the handle when you hammer nails either!
drewyallop
New
TeeAce,
Any comment on this quote? Is the hub in your diagram in fact moving left making a one to one comparison of the two curves misleading?
Yes it does a bit, but the relation seems to stand quite much the same, and that's why I posted the other graph also, where it's measured relative to the hub, if the hub is somewhere close to our upper torso point.
I felt just misleading for some people that they should try to move the hands away from the target and rather understand what really happens in the body and in geometry. So we need once more to go to good definitions. What means wider? How is that measured? Anyway the length of the left arm put some limits to really extend that distance.
drewitgolf
New
Mandrin,
I know that you are familiar with the work of Dr. David Williams and his book The Science of the Golf Swing. You were nice enough to provide models for Michael Jacobs of his conclusions. Dr. Williams work, however, appear to contradict the early release, but other aspects such as the force on the shaft at right angles at impact is negligible backup much of what is being discussed. Should Dr. Williams' work be considered outdated?
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Could you post an example of a top tier player not moving his hands away from the target?
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