If the face angle is responsible for 80-85% of the initial direction of the golf ball, does it matter what loft is on the the golf club and at what angle it comes into the ball? If I hit steeply down on a 60-degree wedge, or hit a 20 degree 3-iron with a more shallow angle, is it still 80% clubface?
Face Angle Question
- Thread starter DCgolf
- Start date
- Status
Michael Finney
New
the ball doesn't really know the difference between loft or face angle in 3D space - all the ball knows is that it is being hit by an angle - loft covering how high it launches and face angle covering how far right or left it takes off...
as a general guideline - please don't quote me - gathered from the trackman data from the pga tour - the actual launch of the ball is between 60 and 80% of the delivered loft or the delivered face angle
60% applies to the lob wegde and 80% applies to the driver generally speaking.....and as you work your way up the set toward the driver the percentage increases with the less oblique contact...
you can sort of look at face angle like you would look at a driver launch - usually a driver's delivered loft is somewhere between 15 and 5 degrees - similarly, most golfers that have some ball hitting ability will usually not make a face angle error of more than 10degrees right or left - this 10 degree face error is inside the delivered driver loft range directly above^^^ (15 to 5 degrees)....
so, a delivered driver loft of 10 degrees will launch the ball at 8 - and an delivered face angle of open 10 degrees will initially send the ball 8 degrees to the right....
a lob wedge that has static 60 degrees is delivered at 40 degrees (because of shaft lean, downward strike, etc.) will launch at 24 degrees (40* x 60%)...
i hope this helps
as a general guideline - please don't quote me - gathered from the trackman data from the pga tour - the actual launch of the ball is between 60 and 80% of the delivered loft or the delivered face angle
60% applies to the lob wegde and 80% applies to the driver generally speaking.....and as you work your way up the set toward the driver the percentage increases with the less oblique contact...
you can sort of look at face angle like you would look at a driver launch - usually a driver's delivered loft is somewhere between 15 and 5 degrees - similarly, most golfers that have some ball hitting ability will usually not make a face angle error of more than 10degrees right or left - this 10 degree face error is inside the delivered driver loft range directly above^^^ (15 to 5 degrees)....
so, a delivered driver loft of 10 degrees will launch the ball at 8 - and an delivered face angle of open 10 degrees will initially send the ball 8 degrees to the right....
a lob wedge that has static 60 degrees is delivered at 40 degrees (because of shaft lean, downward strike, etc.) will launch at 24 degrees (40* x 60%)...
i hope this helps
landongolf
New
GTE Seminar
Michael, your imput in the GTE golf seminar, keeping Brian on Track and having him slow down to explain things was invaluable. I loved it when you feel off your chair when Brian talked about club head wanting to open at the top and close coming down because of gravity. It was a pleasure meeting you....Jack
Michael, your imput in the GTE golf seminar, keeping Brian on Track and having him slow down to explain things was invaluable. I loved it when you feel off your chair when Brian talked about club head wanting to open at the top and close coming down because of gravity. It was a pleasure meeting you....Jack
Michael Finney
New
Keeping Brian on track is a full time job - I actually spoke up about 20% of time I wanted to, if you can believe that. The club head wanting to fall open and the shaft wanting to turn the left forearm open was an eye opener for me because like everyone else in the room, our slicers have a difficulty "squaring it up" and this explained two more huge reasons why it's difficult for them to do so.
Glad you enjoyed the seminar.
Mike
Glad you enjoyed the seminar.
Mike
birdie_man
New
Cool Mike.
With the last few paragraphs of your first post....realized it can be a glancing blow just the same but never knew to apply 80% in the vertical dimention just the same as horizontal.
What about angle of attack? It was mentioned a while back that it did not really matter. Launch and spin I think. (I was excited to finally see science that may make ball flight dynamics easier to figure out)
True though? We didn't seem to explore that too much.
Can you elaborate on the turning the club open/closed? (gravity etc.) I have a general idea but want to pin that sucker down (shoulders to the mat) within my coconut.
With the last few paragraphs of your first post....realized it can be a glancing blow just the same but never knew to apply 80% in the vertical dimention just the same as horizontal.
What about angle of attack? It was mentioned a while back that it did not really matter. Launch and spin I think. (I was excited to finally see science that may make ball flight dynamics easier to figure out)
True though? We didn't seem to explore that too much.
Can you elaborate on the turning the club open/closed? (gravity etc.) I have a general idea but want to pin that sucker down (shoulders to the mat) within my coconut.
Michael Finney
New
I will let Brian post pictures and explain further, but I'll attempt a short explanation.
For most of the downswing (top to a decent release point), the toe of the clubhead is in a position to fall open because of its weight. Go to a DTL sequence and click through it. At each stopping point, look to see where the toe of the club head would fall if the golfer were to loosen his grip pressure. Until the toe of the club head gets to the other side of the shaft (just after a decent release point), the desire of the overall club head would be to "fall open" (thus opening the club face). From release point to impact, the desire of the club head would be to "fall closed".
Students have a tougher time keeping the club face more closed during the initial part of the downswing for this reason.
Along the same lines, the ENTIRE club shaft does the exact same thing to the entire left forearm. As you click through another DTL swing, notice how the length of the shaft (and all of its weight) is in a position to "pull" the left forearm open (or more turned). This "pull open" continues until the weight of the club shaft gets to the other side of the forearm (just after a decent release point).
Both of these "opening" forces are working against the slicer (and straight ball hitter and hooker) during EVERY swing. Brian Manzella is the first golfer to ever identify it, as far as I know.
I now understand why some slicers struggle to "close" the clubface. These two reasons are not the only forces or causes of open clubfaces, but they should not be forgotten when diagnosing a struggling slicer.
For most of the downswing (top to a decent release point), the toe of the clubhead is in a position to fall open because of its weight. Go to a DTL sequence and click through it. At each stopping point, look to see where the toe of the club head would fall if the golfer were to loosen his grip pressure. Until the toe of the club head gets to the other side of the shaft (just after a decent release point), the desire of the overall club head would be to "fall open" (thus opening the club face). From release point to impact, the desire of the club head would be to "fall closed".
Students have a tougher time keeping the club face more closed during the initial part of the downswing for this reason.
Along the same lines, the ENTIRE club shaft does the exact same thing to the entire left forearm. As you click through another DTL swing, notice how the length of the shaft (and all of its weight) is in a position to "pull" the left forearm open (or more turned). This "pull open" continues until the weight of the club shaft gets to the other side of the forearm (just after a decent release point).
Both of these "opening" forces are working against the slicer (and straight ball hitter and hooker) during EVERY swing. Brian Manzella is the first golfer to ever identify it, as far as I know.
I now understand why some slicers struggle to "close" the clubface. These two reasons are not the only forces or causes of open clubfaces, but they should not be forgotten when diagnosing a struggling slicer.
birdie_man
New
Clear as day thanks Mike.
Very interesting.
Possible this can also contribute to golfers getting underplane? (or is that reading too much into it)
If it does perhaps full rolling it can affect some things.
Surely it works in the backswing too eh. (automatic opening...I presume it could work for or against a golfer)
Neat stuff 4 real.
Very interesting.
Possible this can also contribute to golfers getting underplane? (or is that reading too much into it)
If it does perhaps full rolling it can affect some things.
Surely it works in the backswing too eh. (automatic opening...I presume it could work for or against a golfer)
Neat stuff 4 real.
How much does the force of the pivot open the face, or attempt to open it, on the downswing?
I was thinking about how my left upper arm gets pinned against my left pec in the down swing when I swing hard. I think this is the #4 accumulator. Does the force that loads #4 have any kind of pulling effect on the toe of the club?
Is this why it's harder to square the face when I try to nuke one?
I was thinking about how my left upper arm gets pinned against my left pec in the down swing when I swing hard. I think this is the #4 accumulator. Does the force that loads #4 have any kind of pulling effect on the toe of the club?
Is this why it's harder to square the face when I try to nuke one?
ggsjpc
New
Questions from GTE....
I've asked a bunch of people from this forum about what do golfers know most. Do they know/feel clubface relative to the target or clubface relative to the plane more? I've tossed and turned about this question and received different answers from many people.
Brian also confirmed at the GTE that a certain swing direction is more helpful for eliminating left with the driver. I had been thinking the same for months and applying it in my teaching. It also made me wonder if this direction of the swing with the driver encouraged more amateurs to hit slices(along with the face).
If we add in the concept of gravity torque, it seems to me that hitting up on the drive makes it more difficult to square the face(even though it should be slightly later than an iron). Then you throw in the tumble which, as I understand it, is a solution to a gravity torque problem.
What does all this mean to me? To me, if the right wrist stays above the right elbow too long(in an attempt to hit up). You can't tumble well, the club face is working open and with the D plane implications of swinging up we get this result=SLICE.
Am I understanding this correctly?
I've asked a bunch of people from this forum about what do golfers know most. Do they know/feel clubface relative to the target or clubface relative to the plane more? I've tossed and turned about this question and received different answers from many people.
Brian also confirmed at the GTE that a certain swing direction is more helpful for eliminating left with the driver. I had been thinking the same for months and applying it in my teaching. It also made me wonder if this direction of the swing with the driver encouraged more amateurs to hit slices(along with the face).
If we add in the concept of gravity torque, it seems to me that hitting up on the drive makes it more difficult to square the face(even though it should be slightly later than an iron). Then you throw in the tumble which, as I understand it, is a solution to a gravity torque problem.
What does all this mean to me? To me, if the right wrist stays above the right elbow too long(in an attempt to hit up). You can't tumble well, the club face is working open and with the D plane implications of swinging up we get this result=SLICE.
Am I understanding this correctly?
Erik_K
New
You ask a lot of very important questions. Since I have been following Brian (circa 2003 or 2004, maybe earlier actually) - I feel the central thesis to his teaching (again this is my opinion) is to:
Fix the Face.
I think most golfers know how to compensate based on their face issue(s). That is to say, when I see the average Joe beating balls on the range or on my Tuesday night (golf league night) play their setups, stance, grip, and so are designed to compensate for the (in most cases) open face.
I have been playing for 20+ years (I am 30) and have had every golf problem known to man. Lately, through my work with Damon, Brian, and Kevin Shields (Jon Hardesty too) 95% of my problems are with the clubface. If you have seen NSA, Brian spends considerable time discussing where, in the swing, one can have problems with the face. That is to say you can fan it open on the backswing, loose twistaway on the downswing, have improper swivel (need for wedding ring up) and so on.
When Kevin Shields examined my latest Trackman numbers at the GTE seminar, the values were much improved. However, in all three swings we looked at, the face was open. As a result, many of my flaws in the swing were built around a fear of losing the ball to the right. I seem to suffer from a few things that creep in at random times: pop out, and overly rotated left arm, and a failure to main twistaway.
All are very important, but of the three, maybe maintaining the twistaway is the most critical. Kevin told me that you cannot get around this issue. If I want to get better, get into more solid alignments, have more delay, more lag, I need to learn how to maintain the twist all the way through.
The hard part, or should I say really frustrating part, is that I have known this for quite some time. Yet the diagnosis and drills to fix this problem aren't all that difficult to find and apply. Granted, I do make a concerted effort to maintain the twist with the driver (my biggest problem club) and I always thought if I perform too much twist away, I'd hook the sucker off the planet. As Brian correctly pointed out to me on the range, with the longer clubs, the tendency is for the club to open. To counteract this unwanted twist (or torque), I need to apply a lot of twistaway. This was maybe the most eye opening swing thought and analysis I have come across in my 20+ years of hacking this little white ball. Though I think Damon and Kevin Shields also picked this up, I was fortunate enough to have Brian put it into terms I could finally grasp.
In summary, you might have to take a step or two back before you can finally move forward. I thought I knew my swing inside and out. But what I really know, is how much I don't know. Or stated differently, I am still overcoming a lot of bad swing advice and/or self-destructive thoughts that are preventing me from moving forward.
Erik
Fix the Face.
I think most golfers know how to compensate based on their face issue(s). That is to say, when I see the average Joe beating balls on the range or on my Tuesday night (golf league night) play their setups, stance, grip, and so are designed to compensate for the (in most cases) open face.
I have been playing for 20+ years (I am 30) and have had every golf problem known to man. Lately, through my work with Damon, Brian, and Kevin Shields (Jon Hardesty too) 95% of my problems are with the clubface. If you have seen NSA, Brian spends considerable time discussing where, in the swing, one can have problems with the face. That is to say you can fan it open on the backswing, loose twistaway on the downswing, have improper swivel (need for wedding ring up) and so on.
When Kevin Shields examined my latest Trackman numbers at the GTE seminar, the values were much improved. However, in all three swings we looked at, the face was open. As a result, many of my flaws in the swing were built around a fear of losing the ball to the right. I seem to suffer from a few things that creep in at random times: pop out, and overly rotated left arm, and a failure to main twistaway.
All are very important, but of the three, maybe maintaining the twistaway is the most critical. Kevin told me that you cannot get around this issue. If I want to get better, get into more solid alignments, have more delay, more lag, I need to learn how to maintain the twist all the way through.
The hard part, or should I say really frustrating part, is that I have known this for quite some time. Yet the diagnosis and drills to fix this problem aren't all that difficult to find and apply. Granted, I do make a concerted effort to maintain the twist with the driver (my biggest problem club) and I always thought if I perform too much twist away, I'd hook the sucker off the planet. As Brian correctly pointed out to me on the range, with the longer clubs, the tendency is for the club to open. To counteract this unwanted twist (or torque), I need to apply a lot of twistaway. This was maybe the most eye opening swing thought and analysis I have come across in my 20+ years of hacking this little white ball. Though I think Damon and Kevin Shields also picked this up, I was fortunate enough to have Brian put it into terms I could finally grasp.
In summary, you might have to take a step or two back before you can finally move forward. I thought I knew my swing inside and out. But what I really know, is how much I don't know. Or stated differently, I am still overcoming a lot of bad swing advice and/or self-destructive thoughts that are preventing me from moving forward.
Erik
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
John, hitting up is more a product of catching it later on the plane (closing) and what the shaft is doing (kicking forward, also helping it close). Tilting back will indeed put an opening torque on the face which is why you should limit that.
Play the ball up, aim right, stall the fulcrum earlier (or left arm), catch it later on the plane (after low point), and get a properly fitted driver.
25 more in the air. Yeah, baby!
Play the ball up, aim right, stall the fulcrum earlier (or left arm), catch it later on the plane (after low point), and get a properly fitted driver.
25 more in the air. Yeah, baby!
ggsjpc
New
Ok, so here's where my mind receives contradictory info. If I'm reading this correctly, hitting it later on the plane is a closing move. From what I've heard Brian and you talk about before is hitting up is a left preventer because the plane line is more left.
This brings me back to does the player know/feel face relative to plane line(more closed) or relative to target(more open)?
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I think it can go either way. I think you have to judge it based on each individual. For me, an open faced underplaner by trade, its easier to square it up this way, but since it bends the path left, its a hook preventer.
ggsjpc
New
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Somebody who maybe hits a little down and to the right who needs extra help squaring the face might initially struggle because of the relative ease of squaring the face to the plane. And an open face slicer who cuts across it might need to fix a few things before optimizing driver delivery as well.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I thought Fish Eye sees all.
Steve Greffen
New
That makes a lot of sense Kevin, and helps the idea that I was having a little trouble grasping of the hitting up on the driver and aiming right.
Thanks,
Steve
Great post.
Brian's concept that a huge percentage of golfers are doing what they are doing because of underlying face issues is one of those truly fundamental insights that changes everything that you see in golf.
The funny thing is that it took a Trackman analysis in Maryland and some adjustments/tests Brian gave me to realize how much some of my swing issues (including my too far left path) were also related to underlying clubface issues. My pattern was covering up those issues, for the most part, but left me with a far less than optimal pattern that limited me significantly.
HOT CHILLI
New
The face is 85% so alot of movements in the swing are based on getting the correct face/path ratio for the desirable ball flight, your face is open, you flip/swing left/twistaway(best)...what ever it takes to square it to the path, then you aim where the ball goes and you're fine.
The whole swing is one big compensation...the CLUBFACE is Boss!
Was it an open or Closed face issue?
By your too far left path I'll say open?
Yet closed face also seems reasonable, Pull fade NHA2 Pattern, maybe...I don't know.
- Status