Face Angle Question

[HOT CHILLI]

I think it can go either way. I think you have to judge it based on each individual. For me, an open faced underplaner by trade, its easier to square it up this way, but since it bends the path left, its a hook preventer.

Kevin what is bending the path left if you say an open faced underplaner?
Can you swing underplaner to the right, having shaft lean forward/too much axis tilt, and still swing left?
Hitting up?

 

[HOT CHILLI]

Somebody who maybe hits a little down and to the right who needs extra help squaring the face might initially struggle because of the relative ease of squaring the face to the plane. And an open face slicer who cuts across it might need to fix a few things before optimizing driver delivery as well.

Kevin, I don't get it sorry...
Fix a few things like what?
A slicer with open face that cut across will have more work than an underplaner that swing to the right with open face relative to his plane, who is in more trouble?
This whole thread is killing me, yet I sense something...like someone will clear up all the issues, Please.

 

[HOT CHILLI]

For most of the downswing (top to a decent release point), the toe of the clubhead is in a position to fall open because of its weight. Go to a DTL sequence and click through it. At each stopping point, look to see where the toe of the club head would fall if the golfer were to loosen his grip pressure. Until the toe of the club head gets to the other side of the shaft (just after a decent release point), the desire of the overall club head would be to "fall open" (thus opening the club face). From release point to impact, the desire of the club head would be to "fall closed".

Students have a tougher time keeping the club face more closed during the initial part of the downswing for this reason.

Along the same lines, the ENTIRE club shaft does the exact same thing to the entire left forearm. As you click through another DTL swing, notice how the length of the shaft (and all of its weight) is in a position to "pull" the left forearm open (or more turned). This "pull open" continues until the weight of the club shaft gets to the other side of the forearm (just after a decent release point).

Both of these "opening" forces are working against the slicer (and straight ball hitter and hooker) during EVERY swing. Brian Manzella is the first golfer to ever identify it, as far as I know.

I now understand why some slicers struggle to "close" the clubface. These two reasons are not the only forces or causes of open clubfaces, but they should not be forgotten when diagnosing a struggling slicer.

Wow!
Great post!

 

[niblick1]

The face is 85% so alot of movements in the swing are based on getting the correct face/path ratio for the desirable ball flight, your face is open, you flip/swing left/twistaway(best)...what ever it takes to square it to the path, then you aim where the ball goes and you're fine.
The whole swing is one big compensation...the CLUBFACE is Boss!

Was it an open or Closed face issue?
By your too far left path I'll say open?
Yet closed face also seems reasonable, Pull fade NHA2 Pattern, maybe...I don't know.

I was swinging way left and hitting a hold-on cut, short distance shots, very high with a pivot that was NHA-ish. Used my pivot and pp4 and almost no right arm, shoulders very open at impact. It wasn't until I started moving the path back more right that I realized I needed better control and more right arm and that leakage was an issue if I was not swinging way left.

It gave me the illusion of clubface control.

It might work if I played 6200 yard courses.

 

[HOT CHILLI]

I was swinging way left and hitting a hold-on cut, short distance shots, very high with a pivot that was NHA-ish. Used my pivot and pp4 and almost no right arm, shoulders very open at impact. It wasn't until I started moving the path back more right that I realized I needed better control and more right arm and that leakage was an issue if I was not swinging way left.

It gave me the illusion of clubface control.

It might work if I played 6200 yard courses.

Wait wait, you move the path more right(aim straight) and more right arm(closeing clubface) but you still were swinging left with NHA-ish pivot yes? because if you started swing underplane with that aim - hello duckhook?
"It gave me the illusion of clubface control." Please explain.
It's basically Brian, you had lessons with him?

Can I ask a simple question?
Do we aim left/right to play our fade/draw or do we aim there because we fade/draw (D-plane Ball flight)?

Do we get the ball flight because our body is doing something because we aim relative to target? if so I can aim way left to play a fade, and I'll think draw and shut the face with a full roll underplane hook...

 

[Steve Greffen]

aim

First I would say that we aim a certain way to help aid our swing plane to be a certain direction. Just the aim itself does not ensure that our swing plane will follow where our body is aimed, it should help though.

That said, I would say that you would need to adjust the swing plane to hit different shots, otherwise the curvature would not match up to your target.

ie a fade that fades past the hole or a draw that draws too much.

You would also need to adjust the swing plane for how much down or up you hit on the ball.

 

[Shot Limit]

So in other words: both.

 

[spktho]

You ask a lot of very important questions. Since I have been following Brian (circa 2003 or 2004, maybe earlier actually) - I feel the central thesis to his teaching (again this is my opinion) is to:

Fix the Face.

I think most golfers know how to compensate based on their face issue(s). That is to say, when I see the average Joe beating balls on the range or on my Tuesday night (golf league night) play their setups, stance, grip, and so are designed to compensate for the (in most cases) open face.

I have been playing for 20+ years (I am 30) and have had every golf problem known to man. Lately, through my work with Damon, Brian, and Kevin Shields (Jon Hardesty too) 95% of my problems are with the clubface. If you have seen NSA, Brian spends considerable time discussing where, in the swing, one can have problems with the face. That is to say you can fan it open on the backswing, loose twistaway on the downswing, have improper swivel (need for wedding ring up) and so on.

When Kevin Shields examined my latest Trackman numbers at the GTE seminar, the values were much improved. However, in all three swings we looked at, the face was open. As a result, many of my flaws in the swing were built around a fear of losing the ball to the right. I seem to suffer from a few things that creep in at random times: pop out, and overly rotated left arm, and a failure to main twistaway.

All are very important, but of the three, maybe maintaining the twistaway is the most critical. Kevin told me that you cannot get around this issue. If I want to get better, get into more solid alignments, have more delay, more lag, I need to learn how to maintain the twist all the way through.

The hard part, or should I say really frustrating part, is that I have known this for quite some time. Yet the diagnosis and drills to fix this problem aren't all that difficult to find and apply. Granted, I do make a concerted effort to maintain the twist with the driver (my biggest problem club) and I always thought if I perform too much twist away, I'd hook the sucker off the planet. As Brian correctly pointed out to me on the range, with the longer clubs, the tendency is for the club to open. To counteract this unwanted twist (or torque), I need to apply a lot of twistaway. This was maybe the most eye opening swing thought and analysis I have come across in my 20+ years of hacking this little white ball. Though I think Damon and Kevin Shields also picked this up, I was fortunate enough to have Brian put it into terms I could finally grasp.

In summary, you might have to take a step or two back before you can finally move forward. I thought I knew my swing inside and out. But what I really know, is how much I don't know. Or stated differently, I am still overcoming a lot of bad swing advice and/or self-destructive thoughts that are preventing me from moving forward.

Erik

I also suffer from open club face issues. I think that an early and sometimes more of an axis tilt on the downswing allows for more time to get the club face square also. I have been working on this and have found that I can relax the twistaway a little bit as long as I get enough axis tilt.