Fade and Draws

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Kevin Shields

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Billy_the_worm said:
You could try something a little simpler (maybe I am just old fashioned)

One is a fade, one is a draw. Its all in the finish. Thats how I like to shape the ball, start with the finish and work backwards. Anything else just seems to fill my head with so much technique my brain hurts, and I have no chance of hitting any shape at all. I just step back, get into the finish, and work back

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We'll knever know, but i think the top picture is a draw, despite what Venturi said. The wrist is flatter, face turned to the plane, right arm higher, and the ball started out to the right. The bottom picture is a "scoop the marbles" type release with the clubface way open to the plane. Looks like a fade to me.
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Billy_the_worm said:
Not for me Jim, working backwards from the finish is how I learned from an early age how to shape the ball, that way I avoided to much complication. I just learned how to hold off and how to increase the release, and getting the follow through right and working backwards was critical, still is, 27 years on.
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I didn't say you couldn't do it, however i just said it's like the carriage telling the horse to turn left. Might work, just not really optimal imo.
 
spider

spider

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doubled said:
We'll knever know, but i think the top picture is a draw, despite what Venturi said. The wrist is flatter, face turned to the plane, right arm higher, and the ball started out to the right. The bottom picture is a "scoop the marbles" type release with the clubface way open to the plane. Looks like a fade to me.
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I was thinking the same thing as DoubleD. Would Hogan really hit a fade in the first shot with the tree in front on the left and what looks like the green to the right? Please correct me if I have the background wrong. Looks like the shot alone is begging for a draw and vice versa on the bottom photo.

Plus, for me imho (in my horrible opinion) I would finish my swing for a draw like the first one and a low fade like the bottom photo. At least that is the finish I would rehearse in my practice swing.

When I first viewed it I thought Billy_the_worm meant draw/ top.. fade/ bottom. Whether I am wrong most likely or right at least I don't feel alone now. phew
:D
 
Billy_the_worm

Billy_the_worm

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Lol, the guy who took the pictures states clearly he hit a fade in the top, and draw in the bottom. Hands are higher in the top.

Hogan would hit a low fade to a pin back right
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
No, that isn't right. Ken Venturi did the analysis on those photos 50 years after those pictures were taken. Look at them again. The ball is clearly starting right of the target and right of the tree that would be blocking a fade. The other one is coming in from the right side of the fairway with an open clubface starting the ball at the left of the green. Furthermore, to suggest that a high followthru indicates a fade would be silly. I can hit a fade swinging low left and draws with a much higher right arm follow thru. If it wasn't for the pictures, that Mystique book wouldn't make a suitable toilet paper..........why am I up at 3:00 in the morning? I need to get a life. Maybe Brian can chime in on this?
 
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Billy_the_worm

Billy_the_worm

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I disagree, but we will never know. The tree is irrelevant, its Hogan, he would aim between branches if he needed to.

To my eyes the positon of the right hand is the important thing, its clearly released over more for the draw. And I cannot imagine Jules Alexander taking a picture of a draw then calling it a fade. However, its entirely possibly he could have forgotten and got mixed up. I am not totally convinced I am right, I take your views on board, you may well be right.
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Billy, Jules Alexander didn't call it a fade. He wouldn't know a fade from a draw. He didn't even play golf. Ken Venturi did the side text to those pictures when the book was published. He was prob 20 deep in martinis anyway when he did that. I'm only trying to debate more pop instruction/opinion that i think people just take for granted as correct. You're right tho, we'll never know. It's fun to argue about. But take another close look at hand position. The 'release' you're referring to looks more prevelant to me in the top photo. The face of the club is turned down more to the plane, spine more erect, left wrist turned and flat (and ball starting right of the flag).The bottom photo,even tho the right wrist is released and arched, it is very much under the club, telling me he tried to hold of the toe turning over cuz that face is definately open.
 
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puttmad

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The line of the feet should give you the basic intention of the shot (in comparison as to where the green is)....
 
tank

tank

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Just a guess, but ...

In the bottom picture, it appears that he has slowed his body turn to allow the arms to swing by, and the divot is flying (relatively) more to the right, plus the arms appear more crossed at the wrists (horizontal hinge), indicating a draw swing.
 
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self-mastery

self-mastery

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You can fade or draw from either position. My Hogan inspired 'tight' fade has me finishing like the top picture.

We all worry about the wrong things...
 
Billy_the_worm

Billy_the_worm

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I agree with puttmad and tank, the feet alignment and divots give it away, and so does the pivot. There are several clues in all, top fade, bottom draw
 
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