Finally....a "D" Plane pic.....by Manzella

[Jared Willerson]

So in essence is the D-plane..for a draw is

1. Aiming the path right an "X" amount of degrees
2. Positioning the clubface inside the original path an "X" amount of degrees
3. The more left you swing in relation to the original path with a more open clubface to the original path, will produce less draw spin.
4. The more right you swing in relation to the original path with a more closed clubface to the original path will produce more draw spin.

Is this it in a nutshell?

 

[jake2]

D-plane draw (& fade)

So in essence is the D-plane..for a draw is

1. Aiming the path right an "X" amount of degrees
2. Positioning the clubface inside the original path an "X" amount of degrees
3. The more left you swing in relation to the original path with a more open clubface to the original path, will produce less draw spin.
4. The more right you swing in relation to the original path with a more closed clubface to the original path will produce more draw spin.

Is this it in a nutshell?

Does not sound quite right. Both path and clubface need to right of the target. Path more that the clubface. Original target line has nothing to do with spin.


What I do nowadays when I need to draw around an obstacle:

1. Aim club face where I want the ball to start (X degrees out of the target)

2. Aim swing path (plane line) even more out (maybe up to 2 times X degrees, this you need to experiment with)

3. Make necessary adjustments in grip and/or swing to try to guarantee those alignments at impact

Same thing for fade, except "out of target line" becomes "in of target line".

AND

The swing path (plane line) has to be relatively speaking more in for fade than out for draw. How much this difference is, depends on how much forward of ball your low point is going to be for the shot in question.

So you need to aim plane line more left for the same amount of fade that you would need to aim right for draw, because forward low point means that club head true path is going right of plane line at impact.

I struggled a bit yesterday (first round this season) because I did not remember this last point, although he primary reason I had to apply this so often was that my tee shots did not end up exactly where I had planned.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Thanks jake, I think I have the concept.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

In very general terms think of it like this and you'll figure it out really fast:

Path going 5* right and clubface strikes the ball with a 2* open face....the face is now 3* CLOSED TO THE PATH IT TRAVELED ON...thus draw.

Make sense? Now experiment with that idea and you should see the ball flight move around

 

[Steve Greffen]

In very general terms think of it like this and you'll figure it out really fast:

Path going 5* right and clubface strikes the ball with a 2* open face....the face is now 3* CLOSED TO THE PATH IT TRAVELED ON...thus draw.

Make sense? Now experiment with that idea and you should see the ball flight move around

Jim, I know that you simplified this explanation, but gosh darn this makes the explantion soooo much easier to grasp! For someone who gets it but has a hard time defining it to others this is GREAT! Can't express how helpful this will be for me.

Thanks Jim!

Steve

 

[tongzilla]

In very general terms think of it like this and you'll figure it out really fast:

Path going 5* right and clubface strikes the ball with a 2* open face....the face is now 3* CLOSED TO THE PATH IT TRAVELED ON...thus draw.

Make sense? Now experiment with that idea and you should see the ball flight move around

This is a nice explanation. The above would actually be consistent with the PGA ball flight laws too! Except the starting direction would be different.

 

[Steve Greffen]

This is a nice explanation. The above would actually be consistent with the PGA ball flight laws too! Except the starting direction would be different.

Yeah...like George of the Jungle...watch out for that tree!!!!!!!

So what would happen is that the Player would have their path right of the tree and face at the tree thinking that the ball would start on the path and then curve around the tree. Doh! Watch out for that rebound off the tree!!!

 

[tongzilla]

Yeah...like George of the Jungle...watch out for that tree!!!!!!!

So what would happen is that the Player would have their path right of the tree and face at the tree thinking that the ball would start on the path and then curve around the tree. Doh! Watch out for that rebound off the tree!!!

It is my contention that the reason the supposedly rubbish law works for many good players is because they got one thing right: the divergence between face and path is what causes the curvature (like Jim described above). The good player can just figure it out from there regarding the true starting direction.

 

[Steve Greffen]

It is my contention that the reason the supposedly rubbish law works for many good players is because they got one thing right: the divergence between face and path is what causes the curvature (like Jim described above). The good player can just figure it out from there regarding the true starting direction.

Tong, the rubbish law doesn't work for them though. They just get it right (the correct law) by feel. Don't think the pros are sitting there thinking about their path/face as a "PGA law" or D plane law. They know what type of swing will produce whatever shot they desire and they procede from there.

The stack and tilt boys apparently did an informal survey and it was about 50-50 of the players on tour that thought that either the face or path was the initial influence of the flight of the ball. If some of them really don't know then they must be operating off of feel for their shots (particular the bending shots around trees etc)

So in essence, and you may have meant this Tong, the tour player feels/sees how to move the ball and can pull it off (but if they were to explain it may get it wrong in face and path explanation)

Steve

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

The best players just figure it out however THEY need to figure it out, doesn't matter what they think or how they do it as long as it works for them.

 

[Steve Greffen]

The best players just figure it out however THEY need to figure it out, doesn't matter what they think or how they do it as long as it works for them.

Yep

 

[tongzilla]

So in essence, and you may have meant this Tong, the tour player feels/sees how to move the ball and can pull it off (but if they were to explain it may get it wrong in face and path explanation)

Steve

This is what I'm saying:

If you told the tour player, "your face needs to be OPEN relative to your path to hit a draw", they would say, "no that can't be right!" [which is true]

But if you said, "when you hit a draw the ball starts near the direction where your clubface is pointing", they would say, "hmm...really? lemme see..."

Statement 1 is obvious through trial and error, statement 2 not as obvious.

 

[bamfur]

This is absolutely the most illuminating thing I have ever seen in golf discussion. I now totally understand how my swing path was relative to the perpendicular line drawn from the clubface, and how that these determined my ball flight.

My revelation is this. I am very focused on swinging in to out (trying to get a draw), but still hit big push slices, but I now understand! What looked liked in to out from my stance, was actually still "over the top" compared to the perpendicular line from my clubface. Meaning my clubface was so wide open, like 20 degrees open, that when i really focused on an in2out swing path (maybe 10degrees relative to my square stance), my swingplane was still cutting this perpendicular from out to in a.k.a. over the top, imparting additional clockwise sidespin on the ball.

Whereas if my club is 20degrees open, but my swingpath relative to my stance was also 20degrees in2out it would be a straight 20degree push. So with a slightly open clubface, if i hit in2out by a few more degrees than the clubface is open, then i should get a picture perfect push draw... oh man this is such an eye opening revelation.

Hope you other slicers take some time to think this through. It all makes so much sense now. I feel like I am semi in control of my golf destiny and can make steady progression now that I can isolate what my problem is from looking at the ball flight pattern and what combination of clubface and swingpath create which.

 

[joeparr]

Could someone explain what he just said so I could understand this?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

joeparr...he is saying that his clubface is more open to the plane line he is swinging on thus the ball starts right and goes further right

 

[fronesis]

Could someone explain what he just said so I could understand this?

To everyone else: I understand that "D Plane" takes in three dimensional data (including whether or not one is hitting up or down on the ball, and how much) and is therefore very very powerful.

To joeparr: the first thing to understand, before getting into details of the D Plane, is that the ball starts off mainly on a line that corresonds to where the clubface is pointing, not to path. Path will influence whether the ball cuts, draws, or stays straight to its starting line, but contrary to decades of (incorrect) golf common sense, the ball starts (mainly) where the clubface points.

Thus, when bamfur writes:

Whereas if my club is 20degrees open, but my swingpath relative to my stance was also 20degrees in2out it would be a straight 20degree push. So with a slightly open clubface, if i hit in2out by a few more degrees than the clubface is open, then i should get a picture perfect push draw...

He is certainly correct. However, and no offense to at all to bamfur, but I don't think the best way to "fix a slice" is to try to swing in to out even more, so that your path is further to the right than your still open clubface.

The way to fix a slice, as Brian brilliantly explains in NSA 2.0, is to FIX your clubface - meaning, learn how to square it to the target line.

Here's a link to an explanation that doesn't take in D plane data, but will show you that clubface matters most. Personally, I think it's easier to learn for someone who is first trying to get a handle on the big picture:

The Nine Ball Flights

 

[jeffreycharris]

What looked liked in to out from my stance, was actually still "over the top" compared to the perpendicular line from my clubface. Meaning my clubface was so wide open, like 20 degrees open, that when i really focused on an in2out swing path (maybe 10degrees relative to my square stance), my swingplane was still cutting this perpendicular from out to in a.k.a. over the top, imparting additional clockwise sidespin on the ball.

So how is this so-called "over the top"? I understand that the club is too open relative to his in to out path, but how does that make him "over the top?" Help me understand what I am missing.

 

[joeparr]

JIm...thanks...if the cubface is more open to the plane line and it goes more right,in what positions should the club face be at that point..I have so much trouble trying to hit a draw with a driver ...for me what would be the easiest way. I`m a senior who drives the ball very straight 200-230, I need to hit draws on some holes and when the wind is strong in my face...thanks for your help

 

[Jared Willerson]

The D-plane and specifically this picture has made a world of difference in my game off the tee.

I can't tell you how many times I have hit a huge pull trying to draw the ball around a dog leg. This pic clarified how far right I need to aim and basically put an end to a pull draw in the trees....unless I make a horrid swing.

 

[bcoak]

In very general terms think of it like this and you'll figure it out really fast:

Path going 5* right and clubface strikes the ball with a 2* open face....the face is now 3* CLOSED TO THE PATH IT TRAVELED ON...thus draw.

Make sense? Now experiment with that idea and you should see the ball flight move around

that is great