Finally...an answer to average distance on tour, Thanks to the Skins Game

[Jim Kobylinski]

I posted this on another forum and thought the members here might enjoy it. I have been doing driving fittings for a while now and below are my finalized conclusions on how to estimate how far you should be driving the ball if you are using a driver that is properly fit to your swing.

Please note: these calculations are based off of actual swing speed data. Some launch monitors CALCULATE swing speed do not MEASURE swing speed. In these cases the formulas below may not be accurate. In these instances you are going to have to convert your ball speed numbers into a theoretical swing speed number. An example in this instance would be:

158mph ball speed (measurement) / 1.475 smash factor ~ 107mph swing speed.

---------------------------------------------------------------

So thanks to the skins game and the trackman being used (along with their statistics) i have been able to come up with a pretty accurate way to calculate your potential ball speed and carry distance (total distance will be limited on launch conditions).

Here you go:

Swing Speed x 1.475 = Ball Speed
Swing Speed x 2.450 = Carry Distance

Now we have all known these to be pretty accurate internet formulas but they sure seemd to work on all the track man stats they were giving us at the skins game.

So here is the average tour player:

112.5mph x 1.475 = 165.9375 ~ 166mph
112.5mph x 2.450 = 274.4000 ~ 275 yards of carry

If you consider the firmness and speed of tour prepped fairways, you are looking at 285-290 in total average driving distance. I also performed a quick average of driving distance from pgatour.com and came up with: 289 yards as the average.

So there ya go. I think we can kind of clear up all those threads on "what's the average on tour" threads. Also i think that we can all use the "1.5" or "2.5" 100% efficiency in our calcuations to provide theoretically possibilities but i feel my numbers above will be a much more real life formula.

Thanks

 

[mjstrong]

Here you go:

Swing Speed x 1.475 = Ball Speed
Swing Speed x 2.450 = Carry Distance

Now we have all known these to be pretty accurate internet formulas but they sure seemd to work on all the track man stats they were giving us at the skins game.

So here is the average tour player:

112.5mph x 1.475 = 165.9375 ~ 166mph
112.5mph x 2.450 = 274.4000 ~ 275 yards of carry
Thanks

Does it not suppose a few other factors, namely launch angle and spin rate, that will need to be included in the formula in order to jump from swing speed to Carry Distance? Unless your formula would automatically assume optimal conditions for both...which I don't think even the PGA Tour guys all play with.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Does it not suppose a few other factors, namely launch angle and spin rate, that will need to be included in the formula in order to jump from swing speed to Carry Distance? Unless your formula would automatically assume optimal conditions for both...which I don't think even the PGA Tour guys all play with.

The 2.45 multiplier is what should be used to consider optimized distance. If you are not achieving that then you have bad launch conditions.

Um..i would guess the number on tour that plays with less than optinumum launch conditions these days would be under 10%. Golf is a power game these days and it's very difficult to compete if you can't keep up off the tee.

 

[Eagle59]

swing speed with irons

How do your numbers work with irons or are there too many variables? For instance, 100 mph swing speed equals what carry with 6 iron? Great info.

 

[mjstrong]

The 2.45 multiplier is what should be used to consider optimized distance. If you are not achieving that then you have bad launch conditions.

Um..i would guess the number on tour that plays with less than optinumum launch conditions these days would be under 10%. Golf is a power game these days and it's very difficult to compete if you can't keep up off the tee.

Gotcha. Do you know what other assumptions are in that formula? Sea Level? 0mph wind speed?

 

[mb6606]

They also mentioned that Stephen Ames was fitted by Trackman and gained 17 yds off he tee with his new driver. It appeared to be a Nike Sasquatch.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

How do your numbers work with irons or are there too many variables? For instance, 100 mph swing speed equals what carry with 6 iron? Great info.

My formulas will not work with irons, i do not have enough data to figure it out. Also because irons have much more loft the smash factor will decline as the loft increases due to the ball rolling up the face so i would need to find formulas for each individual iron.

Then even if i did that what is an "ideal" launch condition for an iron? Some people like to over spin it, some like to under spin it, etc etc. Hard to do for irons.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Gotcha. Do you know what other assumptions are in that formula? Sea Level? 0mph wind speed?

Good point

I would say no head wind and roughly sea level (+/- few hundred feet) for the "carry calculations" but the ball speed calcuation will hold true no matter the weather condition.

I will have to look into the calculations for different sea levels.

Thanks

 

[self-mastery]

DEL

found my own answer

 

[mjstrong]

My formulas will not work with irons, i do not have enough data to figure it out. Also because irons have much more loft the smash factor will decline as the loft increases due to the ball rolling up the face so i would need to find formulas for each individual iron.

Then even if i did that what is an "ideal" launch condition for an iron? Some people like to over spin it, some like to under spin it, etc etc. Hard to do for irons.

Yeah, I'm sure that the softer surface of forged carbon steel won't have the smash factor of a titanium-faced shovel, yet you won't get a lot of guys considering those "optimal."

 

[fdb]

The ball will react the same way off of the clubface regardless if the face is titanium, cast 400 series steel, or forged carbon steel. Graphite faced drivers, or the old phenolic inserts will provide the same distance as titanium give or take a yard. If you want the hardest clubface you may consider the hardened margining steel used in the older Olimar steel drivers. Titanium and composites are the material of choice for " woods " because the light weight gives the engineer ways to move the material around the club design to optimize launch conditions by adjusting MOI and center of gravity.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

The ball will react the same way off of the clubface regardless if the face is titanium, cast 400 series steel, or forged carbon steel. Graphite faced drivers, or the old phenolic inserts will provide the same distance as titanium give or take a yard. If you want the hardest clubface you may consider the hardened margining steel used in the older Olimar steel drivers. Titanium and composites are the material of choice for " woods " because the light weight gives the engineer ways to move the material around the club design to optimize launch conditions by adjusting MOI and center of gravity.

This is not correct imo; unless you have proof that persimmon wood drivers had a COR rating of .830 i won't believe you.

Also, very few irons are "high cor" to increase ball speed. I know they are out there but the only ones that come to my mind immediately are the Callaway Fusions. Even then, irons lose smash factor because the ball rolls up the cluface before it leaves the face, this is wasted ball speed and why you see lower smash factors as the iron loft increases.

 

[puttmad]

I will have to look into the calculations for different sea levels.

Thanks

There is only one sea level Jim....

 

[mjstrong]

This is not correct imo; unless you have proof that persimmon wood drivers had a COR rating of .830 i won't believe you.

Also, very few irons are "high cor" to increase ball speed. I know they are out there but the only ones that come to my mind immediately are the Callaway Fusions. Even then, irons lose smash factor because the ball rolls up the cluface before it leaves the face, this is wasted ball speed and why you see lower smash factors as the iron loft increases.

You make an interesting point: more loft would result in a smaller smash factor because the ball rolls up the face more. In order to optimize smash factor then, would someone's angle of attack have to be more positive with a higher lofted driver? I would think so...though I'm sure the difference is pretty small.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

There is only one sea level Jim....

Haha...very funny.

What i meant was i need to find out the effects on distance at different elevations above/below sea level ya wanker!

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

You make an interesting point: more loft would result in a smaller smash factor because the ball rolls up the face more. In order to optimize smash factor then, would someone's angle of attack have to be more positive with a higher lofted driver? I would think so...though I'm sure the difference is pretty small.

Well it really isn't my point it's just fact. I believe the correct term is "oblique impact." Could be wrong, maybe the long lost mandrin will correct me.

Yes this has an effect on the driver too but at a much smaller degree. That is why you might see a small reduction in ball speed (1-2mph) by hitting the ball ABOVE the sweetspot because it gives better launch conditions which outweigh the slight loss in ball speed.

I have also seen some driver manufacturers take the opposite route of what most do (ie putting more loft on the head than what is on the sole) and make the driver head with loft much closer to that stated on the sole and because the loft is less (in these instances i'm talking about 3* or so) you will see a slight increase in ball speed and will believe that these heads are "hotter" than others.

I know specifically that Bridgestone and the older Adams drivers (430q and 460d) did this on purpose. This is also why they were considered "low launch/low spin." It wasn't so much that they launched low, it was that most players were used to playing a 9.5* driver that had roughly 11* of loft on the face and now when you actually play a REAL 9.5* driver all of a sudden it's low launch

EDIT: Forgot to add, it's also a reason why those Adams heads and Bridgestone tend to have slightly higher ball speeds as well.

 

[Chris Sturgess]

Haha...very funny.

What i meant was i need to find out the effects on distance at different elevations above/below sea level ya wanker!

I thought you meant at high tide vs low tide.

 

[Qball]

Jim, Thanks for the info. As you said the question of "how far should my ball go" is a very common question. Yes there are many different factors involved, but having a rough way to estimate has some value.

By the way, I bet you didn't know I have been a backseat viewer on this website for a little while now. I even bought Brian's NSA video. I really like it.

Larry Quinnett
Quinten

 

[golfbulldog]

Another forum (equipment based)found that in robot testing some drivers produced ball speeds 6-7 mph higher than other reputable drivers...same shaft...same loft...same robot swing speed 105 and 115 mph....same centred impact!!

Seems like quite a big difference for centred strikes.... I would expect soem driver designs to have big performance differences on off-centred strikes....but if they all have similar COR ( pushed up to legal limit) and impact is over th COG on face...the real "sweet dot"...can face design really have this much effect..maybe 10-15 yards in performance!

 

[tourdeep]

OT..can you say muckleshoot...?!

Jim, Thanks for the info. As you said the question of "how far should my ball go" is a very common question. Yes there are many different factors involved, but having a rough way to estimate has some value.

By the way, I bet you didn't know I have been a backseat viewer on this website for a little while now. I even bought Brian's NSA video. I really like it.

Larry Quinnett
Quinten

Hi Larry,

Let's see, a machinist? for Boeing? If so, play a bunch at Auburn Muni with BA league? Apologies in advance if I am generalizing!

The new clubhouse looks fabulous tho I have yet to go inside. How is it? Last time there, took me nearly an hour to get past the first par 3 on arrival. The 4-5 groups waiting had a nice party.

I enjoy Washington National...

Play Chambers Bay yet?

Welcome to the front seat!