COR has little to do with moving a golf ball that far. Popular Science did a test a while back using a wood headed driver, a steel driver, and a titanium head. The " player " hitting shots was an Iron Byron. The persimmon driver fell way short of the titanium head by about 5 to 7 yards but the persimmon driver had a better dispersion pattern. Steel and titanium drivers were almost equal in distance. I admit that a high COR driver face will be an advantage to a player who can move the head at touring pro speeds ( leaves me out ) but the distance gain is really only a few low percentage points. Most of the distance gains , IMO, result from the technology found in the newer golf balls. Irons have basically the same design as years ago. A metal face so there is really no way the ball flies off of a solid metal face a longer way than another metal face given same loft and speed of clubhead.
Finally...an answer to average distance on tour, Thanks to the Skins Game
- Thread starter Jim Kobylinski
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Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Jim, Thanks for the info. As you said the question of "how far should my ball go" is a very common question. Yes there are many different factors involved, but having a rough way to estimate has some value.
By the way, I bet you didn't know I have been a backseat viewer on this website for a little while now. I even bought Brian's NSA video. I really like it.
Larry Quinnett
Quinten
Hi Larry
thefuture37
Banned
Does the ball actually "run up" the face of any club during impact? I have never noticed this on any slowmo videos.
tank
New
If the ball does not run up the face, how would you account for the ball spinning backwards as it leaves the face (on all clubs - but more obvious on the wedges)?
starretj
New
My guess would be the line of force of the COG of the clubhead verses the COG of the ball.
Jim S.
tank
New
I don't think it is that simple, or else you would be able to get the ball to check with a flat faced wedge (no grooves).
But I'm guessing too.
starretj
New
I think that in tests, a flat faced wedge does spin the ball from a clean lie, the grooves are to give an area for grass, water and etc. to go to get out of the way for the clubface to ball contact. In the last few years I believe this has changed with the more aggressive groove patterns, I believe that they "bite" some on the ball and get more spin.
I read somewhere that lately Tiger gets more spin from the fringe than from the fairway and he had testing done to prove that what he was perceiving was correct. The testing confirmed his beliefs. I don't know why this is true.
I believe that a close approximation is a cue and a ball in billiards. The COG of the clubhead acts very closely to a pool cue and it's contact with a cue ball.
Just speculation picked up from bits and pieces here and there over the years. I could easily be prooved wrong and it wouldn't hurt my feelings in the least. I hope others will join in this discussion.
Jim S.
I read somewhere that lately Tiger gets more spin from the fringe than from the fairway and he had testing done to prove that what he was perceiving was correct. The testing confirmed his beliefs. I don't know why this is true.
I believe that a close approximation is a cue and a ball in billiards. The COG of the clubhead acts very closely to a pool cue and it's contact with a cue ball.
Just speculation picked up from bits and pieces here and there over the years. I could easily be prooved wrong and it wouldn't hurt my feelings in the least. I hope others will join in this discussion.
Jim S.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
The #1 determinent of backspin is FRICTION between the club and the face of the club.
Grooves only AID in spin during wet or grassy conditions.
My initial "hunch" as to why you get more spin in the fringe than in the fairway (all things remaining the same) is because the grass is cut lower on the fringe verse the fairway, thus there is more contact between ball/club with less grass getting in the way.
Grooves only AID in spin during wet or grassy conditions.
My initial "hunch" as to why you get more spin in the fringe than in the fairway (all things remaining the same) is because the grass is cut lower on the fringe verse the fairway, thus there is more contact between ball/club with less grass getting in the way.
Dariusz J.
New member
Grooves no, but edges of grooves create more spin, especially when the ball is pressed more to the face during a hard shot. That's why CNC-milled or micro-grooved wedges (as Eidolons or Wishon CX-Micro) help players to obtain more spin. They also ruin the cover of soft balls...
Cheers
Cheers
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
It can aid in spin in wet or grassy conditions. However it makes no difference from a 'clean' lie. Don't let the marketing machine distort what really happens.
matt kluck
New
Dariusz J.
New member
It's not a marketing, it's true. Have you ever used such a wedge ? I guess not, Jim.
Cheers
thefuture37
Banned
Either way the ball never "runs up the face". The grooves that contact the ball interact with the cover. Sharper grooves grab the cover more than dull grooves, that is why they spin more right?
Dariusz J.
New member
Yes. That's why USGA and R&A want to make only V-shape grooves legal.
Moreover, the bigger number of grooves (especially U-shape ones) means the bigger number of edges - hence e.g. CX-Micro wedges spin more.
The rule of thumb is the longer a ball can stay on the face without sliding, the bigger the backspin is. This is when CNC-milling comes into play, apart from the edges of grooves.
Cheers
tank
New
The amount that the ball climbs the face is probably not obvious to the naked eye, but the reason the for the increased spin with the more sharply grooved wedges must be the increased friction between the clubface and the ball. the grooves grab the cover and push down causing the ball to spin backwards. So there must be at least a little climbing of the ball while it is on the face.
Same as if you angle your palm away from, and strike down on the back of a pool ball.
I think.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Yes, i do and those types of wedges really do produce more spin, however the amount of extra spin those types of grooves provide is really only noticed in wet or grassy conditions (around the greens). Otherwise they just tear up golf balls from the fairway. I read a while ago a nice post/article (can't remember) that Tom Wishon wrote discussing what really makes spin and what can help/increase spin.
I have had wedges custom made for me from a distributor where the grooves are rather tiny and shallow (not extremely sharp) and his wedges spun more for me than any of the Y-cutter, Spin-Milled, or MD groove wedges.
Now i'd like to reiterate, the "special groove" type wedges really do provide more spin in the proper condition, but in general the main determinates in spin is friction and obviously the loft. If you do a search on the net you can find an article about a flat face wedge (no grooves) providing plenty of needed spin. Also, do a search for pure-spin wedges and their "diamond" faces. They have swappable "illegal" faces you can put on them because the faces are so coarse they put too much spin on the ball.
Also, one of the main measurements of what makes a wedge illegal (besides the groove size/depth/width) is how rough (sorry forgot the actual term) the face is. What a lot of people will do is sandblast the faces of their wedges to help create more friction to create more spin, the USGA has a measurement for what is allowable.
So like i said, don't let the marketing machine con you. These wedges will provide more spin but the gain comes from around the greens on half shots and wet/grassy conditions.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Similar to the other post i made, the sharpness of the grooves is for wet and grassy conditions. The wider/deeper the grooves the more water and grass can get in there to create more "face/ball" contact to help aid spin. However if you have a wedge with very sharp grooves, in this wet or grassy condition it can grab the ball 'harder' and create more spin.
However from a clean lie, the amount of spin difference is really not that different. That's how you can tell when a wedge needs to be re-grooved or "freshened." If it provides enough spin on full shots, but not half shots or shots around the greens, it should be re-freshed by blasting the face some and sharpening the grooves.
Here's the skinny on this stuff:
http://www.usga.org/equipment/notices/Interim Report on Study of Spin Generation.pdf
Surprising results dontcha think?
http://www.usga.org/equipment/notices/Interim Report on Study of Spin Generation.pdf
Surprising results dontcha think?
Here's another that may interest a few
http://www.usga.org/equipment/notices/LongRoughHeightReport.pdf
gotta love the science
http://www.usga.org/equipment/notices/LongRoughHeightReport.pdf
gotta love the science
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Very interesting results, thanks for the reading nmgolfer.
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