Flipp'n examples

[cnadon]

T

I do recommend the Taly training aid. After having to take a couple of weeks off I started flipping again and the Taly got me out of it within about 50 balls on the range.



3JACK

Dear 3Jack,

How does the Taly help with flipping?

 

[cmartingolf]

Agreed

I know flipping is "wrong", my question is I can't visually see the flip? These non-expert eyes just don't see a flip. Does someone have a video of a swing (similar view) we can put side by side or something? Sorry to be a pain, but there's got to be some others like me.

Curtis, it can be hard to see during a swing and video helps. For me, it's easier to hear than see anyway.

Here's an easy thought: the left arm is only vertical during the swing once. Is the shaft inline, behind or ahead of the outside plane of the left arm? If it is ahead of the vertical left arm, you are leaky.

 

[holeout]

YES, I'd call that a BAD case of timing the flip.

What's wrong with it?

Well, there might not be ANYTHING wrong with the PARTICULAR shot that he just hit. But go play golf with this guy for 4 or 5 rounds, and make sure there's someone in your foursome for those rounds who does NOT flip it.

Then observe the following:

• the flipper's scores are all over the map compared to the non-flipper, even if they have similar handicaps
• the flipper is more likely to hit a hideous shot than the non-flipper
• given similar size and swing type, the non-flipper hits it further
• the flipper panics when he has a bad lie while the non-flipper just hits down on it with his pivot

If none of that convinces you, then just LISTEN to the flipper hit the ball, and then LISTEN to a pro hit the ball. The flipper's shot probably sounds like every average amateur golfer's shot; but listen to a pro hit a 7 iron and it sounds like a gun went off.

As everyone has said before, you can play scratch golf with a flip, so you may not want to worry about it. Part of it depends on what your goals are.

Do you want to play golf under pressure (even if only in friendly local tournaments)? If so, I HIGHLY recommend a swing without a flip. And this is especially true if you can't play every day. Flippers rely on timing and their swings are more easily exposed by lay-offs and by the pressure of competition.

Are we talking about someone who times the flip well or someone who just plain cold flips it? Because I almost completely disagree with your assessment if you are comparing a non-flipper to a well-timed, tiny little flip (ala Geoff Ogilvy). The only difference you may noticed is a slightly lower ball flight with a non-flipper.

Just my opinion, I may be wrong.

 

[curtisj76]

Curtis, it can be hard to see during a swing and video helps. For me, it's easier to hear than see anyway.

Here's an easy thought: the left arm is only vertical during the swing once. Is the shaft inline, behind or ahead of the outside plane of the left arm? If it is ahead of the vertical left arm, you are leaky.

If it passes the arm shortly AFTER impact is that still flipping? If so, (in my mind) the only way I could keep it flat after is to "roll" my left hand, then I'm thinking the balls going left.

PS There's another TGM guy that used to have a drill where you just make a fist with your left hand and then have it "roll" through impact to keep it flat. Is that still valid?

 

[dannyc]

If it passes the arm shortly AFTER impact is that still flipping? If so, (in my mind) the only way I could keep it flat after is to "roll" my left hand, then I'm thinking the balls going left.

PS There's another TGM guy that used to have a drill where you just make a fist with your left hand and then have it "roll" through impact to keep it flat. Is that still valid?

sure, i would say it's valid...something towards wedding ring up. nothing wrong with if the golfer can keep it on the course that way. otherwise, i would suspect some golfers may need a little left wrist bend past impact to keep the clubface from closing too much.

 

[fronesis]

Are we talking about someone who times the flip well or someone who just plain cold flips it? Because I almost completely disagree with your assessment if you are comparing a non-flipper to a well-timed, tiny little flip (ala Geoff Ogilvy). The only difference you may noticed is a slightly lower ball flight with a non-flipper.

Just my opinion, I may be wrong.

Do you disagree with the advantages of not flipping vs. timing the flip? Or are you just saying you'd like to hit it like Geoff Olgilvy?

Because I would LOVE to hit it like he does. And I'm not criticizing him or anyone else who plays great golf.

I'm just saying that other things being equal, there are advantages to not flipping it.

Let's turn the question around: are there any reasons you would WANT to time the flip?

I don't think so. I think if you could pick a swing off the rack, you'd surely pick Olgilvy's over mine. But if there were two identical swings to pick from with the only difference being one had a FLW at impact and the other had some leakage, I think it would make sense to take the FLW every time.

I also think that a LOT of mid and high handicap golfers would get more consistent if they worked on a FLW.

And a lot of good amateur golfers could make their swings hold up better and repeat under pressure if they went from a timed flip to a FLW. I'll try it one other way. The video above of the flipper is a guy with a quality swing. I've also seen stills of Richie3Jack's swing. I know NOTHING about either player's game or handicap or anything. But if I was forced to play a money game against one person or the other right now, with no strokes, I'd play against that guy with the flip ANY day...

 

[Zztop]

Do you disagree with the advantages of not flipping vs. timing the flip? Or are you just saying you'd like to hit it like Geoff Olgilvy?

Because I would LOVE to hit it like he does. And I'm not criticizing him or anyone else who plays great golf.

I'm just saying that other things being equal, there are advantages to not flipping it.

Let's turn the question around: are there any reasons you would WANT to time the flip?

I don't think so. I think if you could pick a swing off the rack, you'd surely pick Olgilvy's over mine. But if there were two identical swings to pick from with the only difference being one had a FLW at impact and the other had some leakage, I think it would make sense to take the FLW every time.

I also think that a LOT of mid and high handicap golfers would get more consistent if they worked on a FLW.

And a lot of good amateur golfers could make their swings hold up better and repeat under pressure if they went from a timed flip to a FLW. I'll try it one other way. The video above of the flipper is a guy with a quality swing. I've also seen stills of Richie3Jack's swing. I know NOTHING about either player's game or handicap or anything. But if I was forced to play a money game against one person or the other right now, with no strokes, I'd play against that guy with the flip ANY day...

I agree with most of what your saying, but you might lose all your money to the guy with a small flip, why? well playing winning golf isn't about who has the flattest lead wrist, it's about posting the lowest score. If it was about the former you wouldn't need to play, you won because you have the flattest lead wrist. I'd take Ogilvy over Richie3Jack ,no offense to Richie.

 

[Matt 4-L]

I think the handle dragging can be over done too. Handle draggers struggle with the long irons. For some reason in the TGM circles the right hand gets villified.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Don't forget...the non-flipper loves the wind because the The flipper hates the wind and usually can't compete.

That is a HUGE FACT.

I played at Coastal Carolina University, which for all intents and purposes is in Myrtle Beach, SC. One of the reasons why I was so inconsistent back then was not only my flipping, but the windy days that would come with it. If it wasn't very windy back then...I wouldn't want to play me for money. If it was windy back then...a smart person would try to get me in a money match right away. A big reason why I didn't travel a lot of the time is that my coach wouldn't trust my scores, especially when it was windy.

Now without the flip the wind isn't that big of an issue. The other day I hit 16 greens and hit 3 of the par 5's in two in a pretty windy conditions. Gigantic difference.




3JACK

 

[curtisj76]

3JACK, big time thanks for all of your contributions. Do you have video of those pictures you could show? Thanks again

 

[Richie3Jack]

Dear 3Jack,

How does the Taly help with flipping?

To work on stopping flipping with the Taly, you need to keep the red ball of the Taly in front of the clubhead. This is a VISUAL training aid and more importantly, it gives the visual from the GOLFER'S perspective. Training aids like the Greg Norman's secret are not visual and work on restricting the movement of the body. I suggest using it with chip shots first. Then half shots, then full shots. Very TGM-oriented method, but it worked great for me. What helps me the most with the Taly is that I often get a tad quick on the startdown and the Taly helps me feel what the right speed of the startdown should be.




3JACK

 

[holeout]

Do you disagree with the advantages of not flipping vs. timing the flip? Or are you just saying you'd like to hit it like Geoff Olgilvy?

I do disagree. Until you can provide me with PROOF that sustaining a flat left wrist into the follow through (both arms straight) makes you more consistent 100% of the time, what you said just doesn't fly with me. Controlling the clubface, path, and shaft lean is all that matters when it comes to flipping vs. not flipping. And having and sustaining a flat left wrist can give some people major shaft lean problems.

Let's turn the question around: are there any reasons you would WANT to time the flip?

Because you hit it better when you do? I'd use Ogilvy as an example here again, but I think you get the picture.

I don't think so. I think if you could pick a swing off the rack, you'd surely pick Olgilvy's over mine. But if there were two identical swings to pick from with the only difference being one had a FLW at impact and the other had some leakage, I think it would make sense to take the FLW every time.

But WHY would you pick the FLW every time? If you can control the D-plane the same with each swing, you might as well just flip a coin (no pun intended).

I also think that a LOT of mid and high handicap golfers would get more consistent if they worked on a FLW.

Absolutely! Couldn't agree more. But does that mean ALL of golfdom would do better with a FLW vs. a little bit of a flip? No.

 

[fronesis]

Until you can provide me with PROOF that sustaining a flat left wrist into the follow through (both arms straight) makes you more consistent 100% of the time, what you said just doesn't fly with me.

I suppose that's fair in one sense. But, of course, no one could provide that sort of evidence. The evidence I would cite: the vast majority of the best golfers in the world today plus almost everyone who is in the hall of fame have a FLW at impact.

Because you hit it better when you do? I'd use Ogilvy as an example here again, but I think you get the picture.

I don't think many people would hit it better. Even Ogilvy might hit it better if he got rid of the flip. There's no way to know.

I think there's a logical fallacy in your argument, and it goes like this.

1. Ogilvy hits it REAlLY good, and he flips.
2. Therefore it must be OK to flip.

But #2 does not follow from #1. #1 just proves that you can flip and still hit the ball really well. It doesn't show that you would WANT to flip.

My argument is pretty simple. It states: OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, I prefer a swing without a flip.

So, if I could choose between a 5 handicap amateur with a FLW or Olgilvy, I'd choose Olgivy - OF COURSE I would.

But if I could have Olgilvy's swing or one just like it without a flip, I'd take the one without the flip.

But WHY would you pick the FLW every time? If you can control the D-plane the same with each swing, you might as well just flip a coin (no pun intended).

Ah, yes, that's a great point. CAN you control the D plane every time while flipping???

You're assuming that flipping won't make it harder to control the D plane. I'm assuming that it may make it harder.

But I'm no D plane expert. And maybe it will turn out that one CAN control the D plane better with a flip. If we get evidence of that, then I'd be willing to take back much of my argument.

Also, maybe there are golfers who have serious problems with too much forward shaft lean, and they need more of a toss release. I don't know. In that case, I'll just say that for me and most golfers I know, that's not a big worry. Too much forward shaft lean is not something I see on the golf course much. And, again, if I could have Lee Trevino's shaft lean (and his major victories) I'd take it!

 

[jeffreycharris]

I thought there was already a thread that said Olgilvy's release was a soft draw toss, and I'm pretty sure that Brian says, the toss isn't a flip, just a nice soft left wrist.

All this talk about flipping makes my head hurt. Aren't we splitting hairs here? I mean if it happens after the ball does it even matter?

 

[holeout]

I'll provide one last example, just for fun.

This guy didn't seem to "sustain" anything through and after impact. And he hit the ball, well, alright.



The club passes his left arm VERY soon after impact. When his left hand and arm are right beneath his left shoulder, so-called low point, the club is WAY past his hands. But, does he flip?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jack has a soft left wrist through impact but he sure does "store a lot" of energy. Every flipper i have ever seen loses it a whole lot sooner than the guy on the video

 

[Richie3Jack]

Jack ain't flipping here. Not even close.

3JACK

 

[holeout]

Guys, it was kind of tongue in cheek. Jack definitely doesn't "flip" but he also doesn't have a FLW for very long after impact.

 

[curtisj76]

Horizontal baseball swing

If you swung a baseball bat horizontally, is that basically the proper hand action through the ball in a golf swing or is that like timing the flip?

 

[timwalsh300]

I think I understand what Curtis is asking here, and I've been wondering the same thing.

I'm looking at this swing a lot:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC6cFIXQ6N4[/media]

I think my lag and impact position looks good, but you can see that my flat left wrist goes away very quickly afterwards.

But does this mean that I'm timing the flip? I think (and I've only been at this for a few weeks) that the answer is "no." At this point my understanding is that the flat left wrist is primarily just an indicator of proper sequencing during the downswing: the only way to take a fluid swing and have a flat left wrist at impact is to make sure that the hips lead the shoulders, the shoulders lead the hands, and the hands lead the club head through the hitting area. To me "timing the flip" means that you got the club face square at impact, but that the sequencing has broken down prior to impact. For example, I often stop rotating my hips/shoulders too soon and my hands race ahead.

I think that what happens after impact is just an indicator of how much you continue turning and dragging your hands/club past impact.

By the way, Curtis, as I mentioned in my other thread, my baseball swing has served as my example. The only major difference I see is the position of the hands/wrists at impact ("twistaway", flat left wrist, bent right wrist, etc.). Hitting a golf ball with a pure baseball swing would require using an extremely strong grip to eliminate all of that. But the feel of the sequencing is the same, I believe.

Tim